The resurrection

I love his programmes [think it started with a programme about Cezanne]. Haven't enjoyed the Rococo series, though, but then the subject matter didn't interest me. Jonothan Meades is another favourite [on tomorrow night] even though I never have a clue what he's on about and the older he gets the more obscure he becomes .

whitewave You are right it isn't in any way new information.

My NIV has a note after verse 8 in Mark 16 which says ' The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16 9-20', the NET has a heading after verse 8 which says the 'The longer ending of Mark'.

I would be interested to know who the other ancient witnesses are, perhaps Galen can help.

Josephus is the only one I know of and he only mentions Jesus in passing.

Evidence from the JEWISH SOURCES:

Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. ... Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

The Amoa "Ulla" (Ulla was a disciple of Youchanan and lived in Palestine at the end of the third century) adds: "And do you suppose that for (Yeshu of Nazareth - Jesus) there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: "Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him." It is otherwise with Yeshu, for He was near to the civil authority.

Note here that the writers of the Talmud took their job seriously. These men were Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They were not Christians but they documented Christ's crucifixion.



EVIDENCE FROM ROMAN SOURCES:

Cornelius Tacitus in his Annals, xv. 44: Christus ... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate.

Lucian of Samosata: (Christ was) the man who was crucified in Palestine


Note here that these men were professional historians. They researched their work before publishing it. They also documented Christ's crucifixion.


Therefore, three types of witness all of whom are from the 1st or early 2nd century have been presented.


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Just found this

Wow! I used cut and paste successfully!

Thank you Galen.

I have come across Josephus, as his writing has been quoted as evidence for the historical Jesus, but none of the other sources.

I am quite certain that a man of that name existed, and was a thorn in the flesh of both the Roman authorities (fear of nationalist uprising) and the Jewish religious leaders (wanting to reform their institution). He appears to have been a charismatic and caring leader who drew followers to him, and inspired them to continue after his death.

His resurrection is less well documented. Does anyone have any blueprints for a time machine, to go back for some first-hand observations?

Elegran

I'm working on it. In between wasting spending time on gransnet, Facebook and kindle!

Could you convert your scooter? Ot shouldn't take much.

At the time of the crucifixion Peter disowned Jesus, the rest of the disciples melted away leaving only the women watching at a distance yet after his death they carried on and the early church was established, (although it probably wouldn't have survived without Paul).

This isn't really normal human behaviour, especially as traditionally most suffered awful deaths. Something must have happened to give them such courage but wouldn't like to speculate exactly what without Galen's time machine.

If my machine worked if go back to the days of Mithras and the zarostians who have very similar stories.

Mithras was born on December 25th, wasn't he? And died as a sacrifice?

So are you watching the series on BBC2 on a Thursday at 11.20 pm, Galen? "Bible Hunters" I did not see the first, but this Thursday's is about sayings of Jesus which were not incuded in the standard bible, which were found on a papyrus fragment in 1896.

Episode One is available on BBC IPlayer.

See the op!

And read all other posts before commenting . . . .

Melvyn Bragg did an In Our Time episode on Mithras probably still available as a podcast.

"Something must have happened to give them such courage but wouldn't like to speculate exactly what "

It is interesting that religious convictions can overcome the fear of being tortured/killed. Look at those US sects where people commit mass suicide; and suicide bombers are a case in point. Unfortunately they cannot all be right!

I have found the Mithras talk. Will listen to it tonight .

I've just listened to it. Very interesting.

@alternativegran - the sole paragraph in Josephus is generally considered to be a scribal addition - it interrupts a narrative and is in a completely different style.

I agree Mishap but there seems to have been brain washing in those instances and that doesn't only happen with religious conviction.

The written word shouldn't be taken literally for a variety of reasons and the gospels were written a long time after Jesus death, (although my husband knew John Wenham, a biblical scholar who put them much earlier, and thought that Matthew might have been the first), but if there is any truth at all in the stories of the crucifixion and the early church then it's a strange about turn on the part of the disciples. I would simply like to know what really happened.

feetlebaum I don't really know anything about Josephus, other than that he has popped up from time to time in my reading as a reference to the historical Jesus. I have a vague feeling that he mentioned James the brother of Jesus and John the Baptist but couldn't give you a reference. What should I read?

I suppose it depends how you define brainwashing - I think an awful lot of it goes on within religions - I am not talking about grown adults who have thought through their beliefs, but about children. I feel very uncomfortable about children being taught beliefs as though they are truths; and even more uncomfortable about faith schools of all denominations.