Should we follow France's lead and ban face coverings?

I don't see why, because a state is secular, the people aren't allowed to demonstrate their religion. There are many Catholics in France. I don't believe they are not allowed to wear a cross.

France is a secular state so demonstrations of religion aren't allowed. I don't know how they go on with bishops, priests, nuns.....

No problem with headscarves. It's the other things. Agree with most posters on this. It's not religious, just cultural.Nobody should be faceless and muffled up.

That is absolutely awful! Horrible people.

The covering the face thing I can understand but the headscarf is harmless, no different to a turban or cross - I assume these are banned too?

nfkD- all girls turning up at school, however studious, polite, hard-working, etc- are automatically suspended until they agree to remove their scarf. Even if it is brightly coloured with a design, and leaving the face totally free.

At the last French exchange I organised, the French students came first. On the day of arrival, we were told one of the French students had not been able to come due to a family bereavement. We of course included our student in all the activities with the group- she was very disappointed and her family had made lots of preparation for the French student- but of course understood the circumstances.

Then after their return to France, we got an e-mail to say the French family would not be able to receive our student on the return leg, with again, family reasons given. We replied that as she was one of our best students, we expected them to find an alternative family, even a staff one- so that she could join us. We were told that would be very difficult. We wrote again, and again, asking what arrangements had been made- and the answers were always that no solution had been found, and 'unfortunately' she would not be able to come. I was in touch with the older girl who had been placed with our family (she had repeated several years and was older than the rest, and about the same age as our youngest at the time- so I agreed to host her instead of a member of staff as per normal)- as she had asked me to help her find a host family for her as an Au-Pair for the autumn. I told her what was happening- and she knew our lovely student well, as she had tagged along with us on a few occasions. Her mum rang back a couple of minutes later and offered to have her as well as me, to stay at theirs, so she would not be let down, and we were delighted. We e-mailed the FRench school the next morning to give them the good news- and the reply came a couple of hours later. You can't do that- they said. Why not- it's done.

And then the whole story came out- our student was the daughter of a local GP and wore a scarf- and therfore both the French family (no bereavement of course!) and the school thought she was not suitable for an exchange. The family were well integrated and fully aware of the the needs for adaptation to their food and routine during the girl's stay. The school said that if she came to school in France wearing a scarf, she would be turned away. I almost cancelled the whole exchange there and then- but then our families had already made huge efforts when hosting the French kids. I went to see our student's parents, and played the whole thing down- but said it was FRench law and therefore we had to adhere to it. I offered to cancel the whole exchange- but they asked for a couple of hours to consider. They came to visit me after school, and said that they had decided that their daughter would be exempt from wearing the scarf for the duration of the exchange, as she really wanted to go, and they didn't want the exchange to be cancelled for the others. It was such an eye-opening and tragic situation, and the family showed great understanding and open-ness.

Two opposite groups of French staff were adamant that she should not be able to come into school- the far right-wingers, who were openly racist- but more surprisingly all the liberal-left wingers.

No, we should not ban the practice. Persuasion, yes. Banning - what right have we got to do that?

Wel, I never saw Mr Toad as being manly. A frog now, that would be different!

..and Mr Toad....

I think the same!

I don't know why, but dressing as a woman to escape seems sort of cowardly and unmanly! Although I think the Scarlet Pimpernel did!

That too, (as escape disguise) the IRA used that ploy.

(And what about nuns?)

I don't think you should see it as 'your problem' Granjura. I think it's a natural thing in our culture to feel uncomfortable with covered faces. Unless it's blowing a blizzard, veils, masks, visors, balaclavas are suspicious. Why doesn't that person want to be recognised? It's a natural, historical Western culture aversion.

It's not just a religious thing. As a receptionist I had to steel myself to give friendly smiles when motor cycle couriers strode in through the door. But at least I could ask them to remove their helmets.

I agree though that forbidding wearing a headscarf is going a bit far. Our Queen always used to, very much the thing in the 60s. And some Christian sects wear head squares too. How are they enforcing this ban?

It is thought that quite a few extremists have managed to evade arrest by escaping the country wearing burkas.

This is a very difficult one for me. France does not only forbid full burka or face covering, but any head covering in school for girls, even a brighlty covered scarf- which I think is totally wrong. Some teenagers have stopped attending school due to this- how is it helpful?

I really feel uncomfortable when meeting women wearing a burka or full nicab- as I can't make eye contact, or smile to them- and therefore no chatting or any interaction as I am a very social and friendly person. To some exten I realise this is MY problem, not theirs though.

I think that as in the UK we allow, quite rightly imho, to wear traditional discreet clothing, and a headscarf- there is just no need to a full burka or nicab. Some girls actually wear this against the advice of their parents too- and some are of course forced to wear it. It is certainly NOT a requirement in the Koran, at all.

What I do feel VERY EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THOUGH- is the attitude to foreigners and to Islam in general, clearly shown by many who make a lot of noise about it, for all the wrong reasons.

There have been riots in France as a result of the ban. One veiled woman went to gaol for biting a police officer during a disturbance.

Sorry, that's what comes of only reading the last hour's worth of comments.

Tresco that's what I said in the Original Post! But thanks anyway ..

Every Little Helps

There is a letter from an iman from Oxford in today's Times (Dr Taj Hargey) saying that in his view the face veil is not called for by the Qur'an. He calls it a Saudi fad.
www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4138123.ece

I think it's silly to talk of face coverings that are not there for protection (e.g. the sort fire fighters need to wear at work sometimes) as "clothing". Face coverings are for two things: protection in certain circumstances, or to hide behind. The rest of the time we need to see people's faces. Other apes are the same, as people have said already.

Riverwalk the ECHR would disagree with your last statement.

That's not equivalent at all, jen. One can see the features and facial expressions of men who have beards and moustaches.

If it is about choice you'd be arguing in favour of motorcyclists keeping their full face helmets on in banks, for instance, and in favour of face-covering balaclavas of the sort we tend to associate with people up to no good, anywhere where someone wanted to wear one. Are you arguing in favour of that choice?

Why should the choice to cover one's face only be for some people and not everyone?

I think the point Tegan is making is that we read each others faces very minutely as do other primates. To cover it up robs us of this ability.

Chimpanzees??

I think we're a little more evolved so there's no need for us to become violent towards each other!

I don't like face coverings but it's not for governments to tell people how to dress.

Considering how many laws and conventions in this country have been changed to allow choice, I disagree. I think they should have the choice, if it makes them feel uncomfortable to uncover their faces in public.
Men's equivalent, tell them to shave off all moustaches and beards.