What secularism is

We will have less history taught today please.
That is sure going to help kids to know more about history?

I did read the link.

When did teaching less of something, ever increase knowledge of it?

Anyone who think secular means godless or god less doesn't understand what secular means. I suggest such people read the link in the OP.

It is incorrect to think that a secular state as described in the OP would be god less. I suspect that this is because you are comparing a secular state such as the NSS describes with a communist state which suppresses religion. The two are not the same by a long chalk.

As an illustration, the USA is a secular state as far as laws go but it has a much more religious population than the UK has.

I would have thought that most people know that a secular state is not a godless state, as in totally without God.

But it would be God less.
And other religions less too.

Conversations and debates meander Soutra.
And I was asked questions.

Just as a matter of interest, what else would you like to reform Bags?

I don't see why the complicatedness of the issue is a reason not to try to improve things. Improving things piecemeal, making things fairer for everyone piecemeal is a good way to proceed, I reckon. Besides, what's the alternative? Violent revolution? That's certainly how the French went about securing a secular state but I can't say I favour that method.

I agree that there are lots of other urgent, even more urgent, things we need to be getting on with in society, but that's not a reason not to be working towards greater justice and fairness via secularism at the same time.

I can just about understand a reluctance to take on something so complex but I cannot understand a reluctance to accept the principle we are talking about here. The principle can be accepted even if one thinks that in practical terms it's monumentally difficult. The principle it was wrong had to be accepted before progress could be made in abolishing slavery. The same applies to many things that have changed over time in our society. No-one is saying that a separation of church and state is the only thing that needs to be reformed.

The state does not educate us in our spiritual lives. It has nothing to do with our religion, and yet it has a formal link with ONE of the many Christian denominations and non-Christian faiths (plus humanism agnosticism and atheism) followed by the citizens.

The original connection with the Church of England came about because the head of the Catholic Church - at that time the universal Christian church - would not grant Henry VIII a divorce from his wife. It suited Henry to align himself with the growing Protestant movement and declare himself the head of the Church in England.

I will repeat again what many have said but some have not understood - a secular state is not a godless state. it is a state where the functions of state and church are separated. Separated and amicable, not divorced and set against one another and fighting over custody of the children.

Personal beliefs are one thing, and, on the whole, to be respected, but when just one set of beliefs holds political sway, then that is wrong. That, I think, was / is what is under discussion here?

But you saysoontobe " nature doesn't just happen". - it does and has done so in a developing form for millions of years!
Not actually relevant to the argument anyway is it? And what on earth does your comment about the sky have to do with the price of bread?
That is why I think while you have sincere beliefs and I mean no disrespect to them, but that is -NOT what this is about.

I get what she is getting at.
I just dont agree with it on many levels.

But she is *not unique*-no disrespect Elegran- there must be thousands or millions of devout citizens who are not members of the "established" church. If having an established church as the foundation of our society is the best we can do, well it's hardly good enough. Can you honestly say the UK today is a Christian country?
I think we would all benefit from a clear line between Church and State instead of merely paying lip service to religion. Children today do not go to Sunday School the way we might have done but that is not down to the state. I'm sorry soontobe but I do not think you have grasped what thatbags was getting at! I have the greatest respect for Archbishop Justin Welby but also loved Rabbi Lionel Blue- why should one over the other occupy a seat in our legislative body?
Secular does not mean anti-religion or anti- Christianity.

She is lucky. Her parents have put a lot of effort in.

Sausage roll, anyone? Just made and rather good. Most have gone in the freezer but I have kept out a few to munch.

We will eat them on Thursday - all of us but daughter-in-law who doesn't touch pork, or any other treif food. She will eat our family Christmas meal with us, but with the turkey, the gravy, the sausagemeat stuffing, and the pigs-in-blankets replaced by kosher food. She will share the vegetables, the bread stuffing, the bread sauce, the redcurrant jelly, the trifle and custard and the cheese and biscuits. She will drink fruit juice or kosher wine, and will bringing some kosher fizz to drink before we eat.

She is of our family, but also of her own family, and her own faith. She spends festivals with her parents. Her faith is not one which is the British established faith, but it is till going strong. Children are raised in the old traditions, learnt at home and at the synagogue. There is a thriving community, and the state has nothing to do with it.

If her faith were the established one, 26 rabbis would have a right to sit in our legislature. No bishops.

@Nonu - "I rather like and believe in God.

Especially at this time of the Year, Our Dear Saviours Birth."

Mithras? He was born 25th December...Yeshua bin Josef was most likely a Spring baby, born sometime around 4CE.

Well said Elegran & Soutra

Think how more 'equal' education might be if no school could select on religious grounds.

I am amazed ( or perhaps not very observant) that no one has quoted France as an example of a secular state with very clear delineation between church and State. Every commune has its ( usually Catholic) church, priest and many many practising Christians and yet the state including the education system is kept entirely separate.
Works.
Nothing to do with denying God or religion but it is a matter for the conscience of the individual and of the church.
Someone has missed the point somewhere along the line.

Sorry to make you shout Elegran.

But they may not hear enough Elegran. But nevermind.

And the beginning and end of this thread is that SECULARISM WOULD NOT STOP PEOPLE HEARING ABOUT GOD so you are arguing from stubbornness, not from understanding the discussion.

And you have made me shout, soontobe

If the UK state religion were Islam or tree-worship or voodoo, everyone on this forum would vote for secularism. If it were Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren, Anabaptists, Congregationalists, Pentecostalists, or Mormon. or any of the others on this list most of us would be crying out that it is unfair (all except the few who would be suddenly delighted).

Because it is the Church of England (or the Scottish Presbyterian Church) it is assumed to be the natural order of things. Use a little imagination, and picture a House of Lords with 26 automatic Jehovah's Witness members. Legislation for blood tranfusions would get short shrift.

You may believe that the Church of England is the best denomination there is, but it is not the only one there is, and for many citizens it is not the one of their choice.

I rather like and believe in God.

Especially at this time of the Year, Our Dear Saviours Birth.

It gives me great pleasure to think of this and I will go to Church with my Family and gives thanks for my blessings , and I have many of them !

to you all .

If you believe in God, then you will not want people to not hear enough about God.
That is really the beginning and end of my answer.

Even the deepest-dyed atheist is moved by seeds turning into plants, and plants making seeds to continue the line. Life is a miracle every nano-second, and the awareness of that is just as strong if you believe that it all developed from a grain of matter as if you believe that someone/something that already existed created it.

But this is not a thread about believing or not believing in God. It is about whether the state should interfere with your religion.

I mean religion, not brainwashing in my last post!