Stephen Fry on meeting God ...

Give and take here, too. My ex was religious, as were his family and my mother so I went with the church wedding, even though I was agnostic then (atheist now). My father wouldn't step foot in a church and refused to give me away. I think he could have been more flexible, even sat at the back without taking part, as he caused bad feeling and was unsupportive, though he had no problem with the wedding. I go in churches and other religious buildings when the occasions calls for it. I stay silent for prayers and hymns but try not to be obvious about it. I see plenty of Muslims, Hindus and Jews at weddings, christenings and funerals and if they can join in at whatever level suits them, so can I.

Thanks for reminding me of this quote, Trisher.

Got to have an Oscar Wilde quote - 'Religion is like a blind man looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't there, and finding it.'

Oscar Wilde is another Stephen Fry-type: so very very good with words, and so able to see right through society. Great that Fry once played him.

The discussion last night was ... lovely because the two speakers were just so nice . The atheist church man was Sanderson Jones from The Sunday Assembly en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Assembly

You can also find out about him on YouTube.

He founded this church in 2013 and now there are 28 chapters around the world (he calls it a church) to espouse the values of "live better, help often and wonder more". His mother died of cancer when he was 10 and so he had really struggled with the whole concept of belief in a God that would do such a thing to a child (don't we all). He is "constantly excited by life". They meet, sing, share food, do good deeds and are generally high on life, but "we don't say we have a cure for cancer but you can only have it if you do or say such and such". He calls himself a "mystical atheist" which is rather nice. He also said that people have come to his church and said that it reconnected them with their belief!

The theologian was a local academic and they both said from the outset that this would not be the type of debate where "the atheists are aggressive and the Christians are defensive". The actual topic was whether you could have a church without the story of Jesus. The theologian (who was also brilliant) said that the Sunday Assembly people were living out the story of Jesus and the church which is to share and be in communion with others (so their church did operate according to the story of Jesus).

I left there feeling that they agreed with each other about the need for being kind, and living in community with others, that life is sacred and to recognise when we are blessed.

This is probably a better weblink for info

sundayassembly.com/

Just wondering though- why were your father's feelings and yours- somehow less important than theirs?

Thinking about it, I do not think (but you never know until you are there, of course- but perhaps even less now than then) that I would have been able to compromise on such a fundamental thing as religion. I mean, I don't think I would have wanted to join my life for life to someone with whom I'd have such fundamental differences of outlook on life.

I know- perhaps it is just me. I am a huge compromiser generally- but there are a few things I could not compromise on with my for ever partner. Whether some of you understand this, or not, is not important- but I'm happy to discuss. All I can tell you is how I feel- and this is not a judgement (as some always seem to think it is)- just my honest and sincere opinion.

I like that GK- much derision about it- but I think that is great. I often used to think wouldn't it be great if many of us met at Victoria Park and sung, talked- shared, without having to feel like a hypocrit is going to Church (which I did not do, as said before)- wonderful.

Indifference to religion enables me to go with the flow most of the time. It's a discussion I've had with friends whose culture is predominantly geared around expression of faith, but who also have doubts or don't actually believe - they, too, go with the flow because it doesn't harm them and they understand that there are plenty more who feel the same. I found being wed to a man who professed to be religious but rarely went to church was no big deal, just that the odds tipped in favour of a church wedding.

We recently had a christening in our family because the only nearby school that offers holiday clubs for primary school children was the catholic school. Dad was baptised catholic but doesn't go to church, mum follows no religion but needed a practical solution. From talking to their friends in the same situation and admitting to the priest their motivation for taking this step, they found it's common practice. The priest took the philosophical view that at least it got people into his church and some might return.

I don't think it is wrong for parents to do that, when. Far from it. Parents must do what is best for their children's schooling with whatever system is in place at the time. But I do think the situation that not only allows this but encourages it is morally wrong. Government and churches should be ashamed of themselves. Fat chance of that, I know.

Agree with you 100%, bags

GK - where did the discussion take place? - was it broadcast, or live? It would be interesting to be able to get access to it.

It sounds as though what they had to say accords with where I am coming from.

Just to say, that in general terms, as christians, we want others not to go to hell[not to point to fine a point on it].

So, from our point of view, that is what we are trying to stop. And that is why it is done.

And if some people dont agree with that, should they then stop others, or themselves at a later date, not having that chance?

Grannyknot- what I struggle to understand is why this philosophy has to have anything to do with god or religion. It is largely the same as humanist philosophy but apparently those of us who may have similar opinions but no faith are damned no matter what we do.
Soontobe if it isn't similar to the emotion I feel when I look at a work of art is it similar to believing in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy? I really do want to understand.

Going to hell!? - what the heck are you talking about soon?! None of my vicar friends believe this nonsense and recognise it for what it is...people in an ancient culture trying to control the masses with threats. Civilization has moved on since then, thank goodness.

I think that you will find that most agnostics and atheists are firmly wedded to the idea of leading decent honest lives and being kind to others. What weird deity might consider rewarding that with eternal damnation!!!???

We are just creatures - highly sentient and intelligent (or some are) beings, but we live, we procreate, we get recycled. And in between, all we can do is be as decent and kind as we can manage for the sake of ourselves and others.

Time to open the mind I feel.

Your vicar friends, if I remember correctly, change what is in the bible.

Good works alone is not what it is about.

Not sure that this is the right thread to talk about Heaven and Hell. If someone wants to talk about it elsewhere, I would join that.

O come on - let's drown a few witches - nothing better to do today! If we are going to run our lives on the writings of primitive cultures thousands of years ago, we might as well.

My vicar friends do not change the bible, they interpret in the context of the culture in which it was written. First they switch on their brains!

The bible could be interpreted in the context of the culture all the way to being unrecognisable. Totally flexible.

Indeed so soon

Same as the Koran I guess - interpreted in the context of the culture all the way to being unrecognisable - reference ISIS

Why even keep the good works if you dont want to?

The church is up for losing God upthread. A goodworks community centre. So lose God, lose everything.

Meanwhile, others carry on being christians. It never stops.

Who is saying we don't want to keep the good works? - that is precisely what we do want to keep.

Hell has nothing to do with religion, or whether someone is "saved" from it by believing in this, that or the other.

Hell is what is inside us when we know what we have done and the effect it has had, and regret it bitterly, but can't possibly change it. Professing a faith that promises to clean that away is one way of dealing with it. It is not the only way, and promulgating the idea that there is no other route is cruelty to those who cannot thread that camel through the eye of a needle - and if they are sensitive souls, it condemns them to feeling imperfect and ruined because of their inability.

Before Christianity, there were people who were good. They were good and did good works because they loved their fellow-man.

They loved their brothers and sisters because they were brothers and sisters (even if unrelated "brothers and sisters") not because their father would punish them if they did not.

Abu ben Adhem

Hell has everything to do with God.

There are very few people who cannot thread that camel through the eye of a needle.
Why do you think that there are a large number Elegran?

Post 12.05pm There were people who didnt love their fellow-man as well, but I get your point.