Stephen Fry on meeting God ...

"Hell has everything to do with God." - hence my agnosticism.

The camel through the eye of a needle is a mistranslation - it is a rope.

Do you believe everything in the bible soon? - even the bits that contradict each other?

I take the whole thing as it is, yes.

I repeat - "even the bits that contradict each other?"

Adam's rib?

World created in 7 days?

No evolution?

Is none of it metaphor?

I have to be honest here soon and say that it is people of such fundamentalist views about religion who are the real threat to peace and harmony in the world.

Adam's rib yes. World created in 7 days, yes.
Evolution - depends exactly what you mean by that. I think that animals are always evolving. And I think that dinosaurs exist as the bible talks about large, long ago animals.

I had to look up the word metaphor. No I dont think things are metaphors.

How are people like me threats to peace and harmony in the world, when that is what we want? What is it exactly, that you think that I am doing? [I appreciate that I am a person on the internet like everyone else here, so you dont know me, just as I dont know you].

Fundamentalist views leave no room for compromise; without compromise and understanding between people of different faiths and none, then the world degenerates into chaos. We are watching it happen now.

Stephen Fry is a very clever man who sometimes behaves like a wally. He has just come back from honeymoon but the newlywed chose to go to a country where same sex marriage is not recognised and people are hostile to homosexuality. His husband has reported that they were made to feel very uncomfortable and this spoiled the trip. Other cultures have funny attitudes, don't they?

OK so if I don't lead a good life, I do all sorts of horrible and nasty things but when I am very old and can't do much I suddenly find god and have faith so I die believing in god and heaven, where am I going? If it's heaven why bother doing good anyway?
On the other hand if I do loads of good things lead an honourable and self sacrificing life but don't believe in god I'm going to hell???!!!!
Its totally stupid!!!

There is another thread on here, a blog, which is talking about compromise and understanding between people of different faiths in this country. Different faiths are living quite happily together in most towns and cities in this country, right now.

Have you read it? It is worth a read.

But these people of different faiths are going to hell apparently, according to your thinking soon - is it not remiss that christians are not in there telling them this rather than chattering merrily?

"Compromise and understanding" are not virtues available to fundamentalists by definition.

Honeymooning in an anti-gay country does seem to have been a strange decision for SF and his husband!

trisher. Heaven.
There are different mansions in Heaven.
And different layers in Hell.
So it matters in that regard. But none of that matters much to most people.

When someone becomes a christian, or is trying to become one, they do give up a lot in some regards sometimes.
There is not just the easier route of good works alone.

Where is the chattering merrily going on? I think there are now christians everywhere though there could be a piece of the earth missed.
Missionaries still very much exist. They have even been known to come to the UK.

I wouldnt dream of saying that those of different faiths are necessarily not going to Heaven. That is in no way my call.

Who are the fundamentalists you speak of specifically, Mishap?

I think you probably are one soon! You are someone who takes your religious book literally in spite of its contradictions and assertions which have been proved to be unfounded. I think that qualifies as fundamentalism.

Those who look at the spirit of their religious texts and interpret it with their rational brain as well as their feeling brain are, to my mind, not fundamentalists.

Mishap - it was part of an annual festival in my neck of the London woods which is aimed at stimulating discussion. I don't think the talk was recorded but will ask.

Trisher from what I can make out, the man who started The Sunday Assembly based it on "the church model" because it works and he liked everything about it but doesn't believe in God. So I don't think other than that he calls it a church it has anything tO do with religion.

Sorry for brevity am tapping away ony phone!

This has been an amazing and interesting discussion. It is clear, that for some, religion or faith is a support and a driving force to live a good life. It is possible to lead a good a moral life without any religion, and be happy that our time is limited, make the most of it and be the best person you can be. Not for any hope of an afterlife, but for joy and happiness and trying to bring some to others. Throughout my life I have met good people with a faith, and bad people with a faith. And some wicked people with or without.
When people suffer it should not be thought of as a test. Historically poor people have been kept down and oppressed in the name of religion, while others have got rich and powerful in the name of religion.And also by witholding of education and reading.The churches had the knowledge and the power to control society. It is not the religion that is the problem, it is the way human beings interpret it for their own ends. When faith starts to the thought of as "right" instead of simply a personal view, we get intolerance and bigotry. There is no right, we make our own story, let our children thrive and grow in their own story, not the one we happen to subscribe to. Oh and yes, Stephen Fry could probably have chosen a more tolerant honeymoon venue. As Dave Allen would say "May your God go with you"
Maybe the way forward is not to tell people what we do or don't believe, but to listen to them.

Great post confusedbeetle

Indeed confusedbeetle - the problem is that fundamentalist believers are not able to listen. They are required to toe the line and not listen to the "evil" ideas of others. It is really quite scary.

Dictionary definition of fundamentalism: "A form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture:"

It is not a requirement. It is a wish.
And the world very much listens. Hence people who fall by the wayside, and those who do not become christians.

If you call me a fundamentalist, do you think that Jesus and God are too?

I think (like Jackson Browne sings), that Jesus was a rebel:

www.lyricsfreak.com/j/jackson+browne/the+rebel+jesus_20068653.html

Interesting thread. I used to be Christian, now agnostic with much leaning towards atheism.

Like alot of people who grow up in a Christian country I love a lot of the "trimmings". I like carols, christmas cards, nativity plays and all the bells and smells of a service. They make me feel warm and comfortable. I have heard the term "tribal christian" which I think describes me perfectly. I no longer believe in the myth, but the history that the myth has given us is still my history. I have grown up in a country where much of our life and customs are religion based and it is nearly impossible to separate the two. For all of history there have been people who have not believed in the religion of thier time. Its just a bit easier for us in this country to do that.

Soon-- people of faith can do so much harm. Its fine if everybody has the choice of living by the rules that you want to live by--but what about the people who HAVE to live by those rules if they want to or not? What about the women in some parts of S America who have no access to contraception, no access to termination (no matter if they are 9 years old and have been raped by thier father) and sometimes no access to post-pregnancy medical care because of your religion? It does not matter if they are atheist--they still have to live (or die) by the rules of your religion. What about gay men and women in some parts of the usa who are forced into "conversion" therapies? Gay people in Eastern Europe beaten and sometimes killed by their religious peers?

And of course your god is a fundamentalist! It states quite clearly in the bible that the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus. If you do not believe in Jesus you do not go. In the Christian tradition the bible is god-inspired and is the actual word of god. It is either true or not. As you say, you cannot pick and choose which bits to believe in. So, all witches should be burnt, the world was made in 7 days and a woman should have one rib more than a man (but not if, for some reason, god made Adam with one extra in the first place).

Such a very interesting topic--but I think I am now boring for England!!

The stuff had not yet been written while Jesus was alive, so he could not express a belief in it, whether literally or not.

What is a wish and not a requirement?

Do you know soon I cannot make head nor tail of your last post! What are you talking about?

I realise there is no point in discussing these matters with you because no amount of discussion will move you from your literalist and fundamentalist views. But, what is important is that you begin to grasp the danger of fundamentalism in terms of world peace and harmony. How it is just that literal reading of scriptures (from all faiths) that has always and still does threaten dialogue and true care for our fellows - not because we want to convert them or keep them from "falling by the wayside" but because they are our fellows, our brothers and sisters, and we share this world with them.

I understand how these beliefs make some people feel safe - the need to think and debate are unnecessary - but the world is an unsafe place, a place where we have to find ways of getting along with all our fellow beings through our own volition, honesty and caring spirit.

Deary me - how very sad this all is.

If Jesus had been a fundamentalist, he would have insisted on every detail of the old religion, Judaism, and not founded his own Christianity.

Every male would have to circumcised at a week old.
Women would worship in a separate area from men, and certainly could not have been priests/rabbis.
Men would wear little hats indoors.
Women would not cut their hair, and married women would cover their hair in the presence of men who were not family.
Women would attend a ritual at the mikvah bath at the end of each period, to purify them from their ceremonial uncleanness (not just physical dirt)
Animals would be sacrificed because God rejoiced in the smell of their blood.
No-one would light a fire or travel on the sabbath.
No-one would eat pork chops or sausages, eat shellfish or fish without scales, or meat which had not been slaughtered in a precise way.
No-one would eat meat products and milk products at the same meal, or within set hours of each other.
No-one would wear clothes of mixed fibres.

These are rules set out in the Bible, or made and enforced by the religious authorities.

I do not believe that the Jesus/God I have believed in for so many years is/was a fundamentalist. I don't know any more if He exists. I' m gonna wait and see now. But I've got a feeling it will be "rounded by a sleep". I'm ok with that. Although the probably impossible would have been nice.

Oh, and a widow's brother-in-law would be duty bound to take her as a second wife, and have a child with her - who would be regarded as his brother's son, not his. He would have to support him, but he would be his brother's heir and inherit whatever had belonged to his brother.
Deuteronomy 25:5-6