Good for Michael Gove! Never thought I'd say that............

Could you give me a link mishap? I'm not sure I'm thinking of the same thread.

Oh right. I wonder which poster posted that little pleasantly? . And I wonder how many other GNrs agreed with her.

Actually, I can guess who posted it.

We are shivering in our shoes in case the Chancel Tax hits us!

So nobody prepared to say what level of taxation levied for the Church would begin to test their allegiance? And how they would feel about local taxes paid by all, were used for the maintenance, repairs, heating, cleaning, etc, etc, of their local Church either?

This is what happened to the poetry thread which many of us were enjoying. A member felt moved to write this to another member called J05 -

"J05 your first contribution on this thread was interesting. You are now drifting into a more familiar mode in which you are not discussing the poem but just chatting to yourself and spoiling the thread for other people. There are many areas in GN where frivolity rules and it's great to have fun. Would it be too much to ask that you consider others a little bit more and do not give in to your compulsion to throw in one liners on every thread?"

Indeed yankeegran - tolerance has to be the first principle or frankly we are all doomed, which is the direction we are heading in. When people dare not voice their beliefs then we are in a sorry state.

It's interesting to me that when it comes to the state of religion in culture, the Americans and the British are almost mirror opposites. In the US you can be looked on the devil incarnate if you express anything less than total belief in Christianity. A religious affiliation of any kind is better than saying you're an agnostic or an atheist. Here in the UK Gove is pointing to a reverse situation here in the UK. What concerns me, almost more than anything, is the way the world is polarising around religion. Surely lack of tolerance for any beliefs which do not match our own is a regressive step which serves no one, least of all a healthy society.

I mean

Not to beat about the bush: Gove did more damage to English education than any of the eleven secretaries of state who held office during my period as a school governor. angry

Probably not fair to Gove just to give a link to the piece in The Telegraph. Actual article www.spectator.co.uk/features/9487882/in-defence-of-christianity/.

It is now, today, that the Christian religion is being criticised, insulted, and marginalised. I think that is sad. The two commandments given to Christians, "Love God", and "Love the neighbour as thyself", are pretty good rules to live by.

Room. Not corner.

Writers Corner is still there. I don't understand what you mean about that.

Is there then no place for reasoned debate on Gransnet? - does everything need to be reduced to flippancy?

There have been in the past some excellent reasoned debates on here which I have found interesting and from which I have learned a lot.

There is room for both maybe. Constant insistence on dragging everything in one direction seems a bit of a shame. This is what happened to the poetry thread which I for one looked forward to - and the opportunity to share poems and ideas.

I have seen what goes on in the outside world - I was a SW for goodness sake!

durhamjen that's rubbish, and you know it.

That was a slightly po-faced thing to say Eloethan. Sounded like a stern old grand-mama from the Victorian period.

Mishaps - it's a thread. On Gransnet. Come on! It doesn't have to be a to be a heavy "reasoned debate".

I'm glad you live in a sheltered little place where you don't know what goes on in the present outside world.

I was not criticising the fund-raising for the church - I do a fair bit of it myself, as we value the building and what it and the people represent in the community. I was just saying how delighted the churchgoers were to be raising money for a different charity for a change.

I know of no agnostic thinkers who would use a phrase like "pixie in the sky" - I stand by that statement - it is true. No - I do not use twitter. I am talking about people I know.

I do not think that using the word "claptrap" is part of reasoned debate.
I understand that Christians believe that giving someone a bible is a worthwhile gift - they would not do it otherwise; but I see it as patronising to others' beliefs, which should be equally valued.

I do think that Gove's article is simplistic, and most of my Christian friends would I know share that view.

What happened here after the vote, is that true believers who attend Church regularly continued to pay, but the 'cultural Christians' who only turned up for Christmas service, weddings and funerals, just fizzled out- leaving the Churches here (Protestant, Catholic and Christian Catholic/equivalent to Anglican, sort of) in dire straights without the funds - selling Vicarages and other buildings they owned for social uses (handicapped, elderly, special needs, etc), not replacing Vicars and other staff when leaving or retiring, and trying really hard not to cut services, not only to the Church, but the community).

jingle, where I live, if you are a member of a Church- you have to pay Church tax (to cover for wages, activities, maintenance of buildings, heating, etc)- in most Counties (Cantons) this is compulsory. In mine, it was voted out a few years back- and people can now choose to pay it or not. It is amazing how many people suddenly 'lost their faith' once it was tied to the purse strings... often the same people who still expect to marry or be buried in Church. Although, also here- it is the Council that is in charge of our lovely Church (in front of our house which was the Vicarage since 1587 until 2009- see snowy photos)- so tax payers have to pay out of income tax, as well as for the Catholic Chapel down the road. There was a service today- but this is very rare nowadays. The heating system needs to be replaced at great cost- and the great majority of non-Church goers are indeed grumbling about having to pay- and would rather their taxes went to the school or health services, etc.

I do wonder how many people in the UK who call themselves Christians would actually continue to do so if it cost them 8% on top of their normal taxes.

The only one in this particular discussion who seems to be displaying a fairly high level of intolerance at the moment is you jingle.

Maybe they should give bibles out at food banks!

'Evangelism' does imply proselytising but an evangelical Christian isn't necessarily a missionary, Mishap. It's more a descriptor of a particular style of worship and an attitude to the religion. And if it is still the case that Bibles are being included with aid, no-one is obliged to read them. In the days when the gospel came as an unavoidable inclusion in the aid and care package, missionaries believed the news of Christianity was a much greater gift than any other. Evidence of more, not less, altruistic motivation.

I think he has been reading MumsNet! Real hatred of religion on there and it is like banging your head against a brick wall to give another side. Lots of talk about pixies in the sky, imaginary friends etc -and no toleration.

Maybe he wasn't talking about any "organisation". Just the people who try to follow Christ's teachings.

And Mishap, would you really want that lovely old church of yours to fall into decay? I wouldn't. Perhaps best not to criticise the fund-raising for church repairs.