A thread to debate the existence or otherwise of the Christian God

I cannot speak for any other Christian, for me I know I fail so often, being 'nicey ! ' can be difficult to unpleasant people, I try to follow the teachings of Christ but I am aware I have a struggle with - turning the other cheek .

Surely to a true Christian there are no 'unpleasant people'.

There are of course people who hold different views and even views which those of a Christian faith may find abhorrent, but it can't be that hard to at least be polite when confronted with opinions which oppose one's own.

I have been reading this thread and the other one, and pondering the comments and my own thoughts. My yoga teacher has again come to the rescue - tonight she ended our class with this little poem and I felt it to be a message to me……...

Faith vs. Doubt.........

Doubt sees the obstacles.
Faith sees the way.
Doubt sees the darkest night.
Faith sees the day.
Doubt dreads to take a step.
Faith soars on high.
Doubt questions ' who believes '?
Faith answers ' I '.

(april 2009)
fawzia zie

I like that Nanabelle and for me it's true

feetlebaum in my opinion, in their simplest form the teachings of Jesus Christ boil down to love God and love your neighbour and between these two statements the ten commandments are covered. Of course we have records, that's what the Gospels are. Although there was also an oral traditional the Gospels were written down and there earliest surviving copies datebback to around the 4th century. That said, I have no doubt that the original Gospels have been intentionally corrupted over the centuries, but nevertheless the basics of love God and love your neighbour still stand.

nanabelle and that is when doubts come - in the dark of night.

Thank you Nannabelle I like that poem. Ana there are a lot of us who say we are Christians who struggle on a day to day basis to love one another and be kind. Maybe the "true Christians" can do this without a problem but there are many non perfect Christians who just try to do their best.

isn't false the opposite of true ? So I am not a true or false Christian, suppose a failing but trying again every day Christian

Wilma - the Gospels were written long after the events they describe - the authors, whoever they were, had no connection with the people or the 'events' - which is a clue to why they conflict in so many ways.

Some of it is just downright lying... Luke's yarn about the birth of Jesus is an example of an author with an agenda, desperately trying to twist facts to fit - no such census as he describes ever took place, with people having to travel to where their family used to live maybe a thousand years earlier. The author was trying to make some OT prophecy seem true... imagine, too, sticking a heavily pregnant woman on a donkey to travel - it's over 90 miles I recall - to Bethlehem...

The earliest books of the NT (Acts) do not concern themselves with biographical details... their Jesus was not a corporeal entity, but purely 'spiritual'.

I do not think that your analysis will hold water with people who have a belief feetlebaum as it is not the facts that they are interested in. Come to that the "camel" in the eye of the needle story quoted above is in fact a mistranslation of "rope", which makes a heap more sense. The whole thing can be picked apart for its linguistic and historical inaccuracies, but this does not seem to hold water with believers, as the crux of the matter is faith - which is a leap into the dark, but fulfils a social and personal need.

Just as Luke (in your analysis) has twisted a yarn to suit his desired story, so individual believers put their spin on each story to suit what they believe. It happens in all religions.

I could talk to a dozen christians and get a different slant on the same story.

Except for the fundamentalists who somehow seem to be able to believe in it all, however contradictory.

Several people have rightly said that the principle of living kindly is really all that matters.

"Several people have rightly said that the principle of living kindly is really all that matters.

Surely you don't need a religion to do that!

"Surely you don't need a religion to do that!"
I don't think anyone said you need religion to be kind. It applies to all mankind, religious or not.

That's how I read it too.

Indeed, my comment was intended to imply that no religion is required to live kindly.

People have sometimes asked what I believe in (in the absence of a religious faith) and my answer is always that I do have a belief - I believe in kindness.

As a non-believer, that's certainly what I meant.

The fact is that none of us are going to find out the answers to these many questions until we leave this mortal coil, and until then we can't be certain of the existence of God or any other higher being. I too had a convent education, and have a clergyman first cousin. Years ago I believed fervently in Christ and his saints, but it was easy then as I had had no experience of life, and so little to judge faith by. Now 60 years along the line, it's nothing like so clear cut, in fact not clear cut at all. My cousin will tell me that God has given free will to mankind for us to do as we will with it according to our conscience, and that it is up to mankind whether good triumphs over evil; our choice. I think that is too simplistic, and a bit of a cop out. Well if God does exist, for certain Christ and his Saints are asleep, and have been for donkeys years. I don't know, but the more I think about it and the older I get I just have a strong feeling that they just ain't there. I wish they were, but I don't think so.

You dont think that what modern medicine can do has anything to do with God? Or the love that ordinary people show other ordinary people evey day has anything to do with God?
Or relationships. Or nature. Or anything at all that makes parts of our lives pleasant?
Or anything that makes you want to keep on living?
Or any good news at all?

You dont think that what modern medicine can do has anything to do with God?
It has a lot to do with research scientists and their hard work and dedication.
(a member of my family being one)

The love that people show each other is simply their choice - nothing to do with god. Indeed none of the things that you have listed are necessarily attributed to god - you have chosen this attribution for your own reasons.

Ir is easy to postulate a god and then attribute to it/her/him anything you choose. Take your pick.

It most certainly could be Gods work soon, the trouble is we cannot categorically say. They do say that God works in mysterious ways etc, so it could be the slant that individuals put on the whole issue that persuades us whether we believe or not. Honestly, who knows?

soon may I ask if you believe only good things are the work of God? What about the Russian air crash that killed 224 people today, the 27 people who died in a nightclub fire in Romania and the 15 people killed in a market place fire in the Philippines? Are events like these about testing the faith of those the dead leave behind? I am not trying to challenge you, just understand how tragedies like this are regarded by someone with a strong faith like yourself.

I would not attribute those things to any postulated god - I think they are due to human error. There are quite enough other things attributable to this unknown being, where human error can be ruled out - the list is endless.

If you are asking why this postulated being does not intervene to prevent such disasters, I think there have been answers suggested upthread. As for me - I pass!

Luckygirl that's why I asked the question. Why are some things attributed to human error, yet others are the work of God? To put it simply, good is the work of God, bad is the work of Man. Success is the work of God, failure is the work of Man. Happiness is the work of God, unhappiness is the work of Man. I can't believe those with faith can think in these terms and would like to hear their thoughts to understand it better.

Well Wilma - I have the impression that those of faith do just that.

The BIble is full of things that God did. And we can only presume that he carries on doing such things. God is doing lots of things for lots of different reasons.
He knows the answers. We know very few of them.