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Extreme Religion

(103 Posts)
Granny23 Thu 03-Dec-15 12:47:26

Got this from a friend via Facebook this am. It was a new line of thought for me and I wondered what Gransnetters would make of it:

" Just seems to me that people are using religion as a means to highlight our differences rather than our common morally accepted beliefs. Whilst the numbers of those who practice religion seem to be declining it seems that those practitioners left are becoming more fundamental and radical in their views. That includes Jews, Christians and Muslims among others..."

Anniebach Thu 03-Dec-15 23:29:50

Rosequartz, yes I agreeing with you,,I believe if anyone thinks they are chosen as someone special they have problems. I am not including callings with chosen , so different.

rosequartz Thu 03-Dec-15 23:36:11

Although Deuteronomy 7:6 does say
The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people
confused
moon

granjura Fri 04-Dec-15 12:24:42

And of course, some Christian groups, like Jehovah's Witnesses- have a very fixed number of chosen ones. So if too many people follow the religion to the letter and prove themselves to be as good as the others- then what happens to them? A bit like A'Levels when a specific percentage of As and Bs, etc, is prescribed???

Anniebach Fri 04-Dec-15 12:29:19

Yes rosequartz , but a very long time before he sent his beloved son to teach us all what was expected of us

soontobe Fri 04-Dec-15 12:50:36

JW change the Bible a lot, even or especially over the last few decades.

Ab, dont forget the books after the gospels as well.

Anniebach Fri 04-Dec-15 13:16:13

I don't forget the books after the gospels soon but as a Christian it is Christs teachings which are of greater importance to me

granjura Fri 04-Dec-15 15:22:05

As far as non-Christians from other cultures- Christians are 'Christians' - be they Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren- Catholics or Anglicans, Methodists or Baptists, etc - and will pick 'extremes' form each of their teachings and books to say this is what 'Christians' believe in and do - same as many do with Muslims.

TriciaF Fri 04-Dec-15 15:56:47

Rosequartz' quote about God choosing the Jews - but chosen for what?
They're supposed to fulfill 613 obligations, (mitzvot) , to please God. If they don't, God will turn his back on them. Many are impossible to keep at the moment (eg the priestly duties.)
Whereas other nations only have the 7 Noachide laws., which if they keep them, God will love them.
As I've mentioned, I converted to Judaism in later life, and this concept of the chosen always bothered me.
As for becoming more fundamental and radical, we lived in a very orthodox community for 10 years, and the main fear was assimilation. So the tendency is to become more strict to counteract that.
I don't know enough about Muslims to know if that applies to them too.

rosequartz Fri 04-Dec-15 16:01:53

Thank you TriciaF for a bit more enlightenment. That quote from Deuteronomy always stuck in my mind (although I had to look up which book it was from!).
As I said previously, we have missionaries in our ancestry - they were a sect of Christianity who obviously did not believe that Mormons were following the right path, as it was Mormons they were trying to bring back to the path of righteousness!

soontobe Fri 04-Dec-15 16:29:07

granjura, the Bible is quite clear that people[and I mean people, as there are different people in denominations] are not to add or subtract from the Bible.
Some of the denominations in your list use a Bible that adds or subtracts parts, or chunks from it.

granjura Fri 04-Dec-15 17:24:40

Are you sure that Churches have not made a deliberate selection? Or translate in such a way as to alter the meaning (remember my comments on Adam and Eve- being about man, as in man in general and not man and woman- as an example). And what about the Ancient Testament- is it still adhered to word for word?

But the above has nothing to do with the message I was trying to pput through- and that is many people in the 'West' tend to lump all the Muslims in one big pot- when in fact they come in as many varieties as Christians do over the world.

granjura Fri 04-Dec-15 17:54:49

My mother worked for the Swiss and world Bible society- and I remember discussing the very heated arguments about modern translations, etc.

granjura Thu 10-Dec-15 09:26:27

In the context of what is happening in the world- this analysis may be of interest. Texts are quite long- and of course you are free to ignore, or get bored, or whatever. I found this really useful and fascinating:

Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

Defense Vs. Total Annihilation

"Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible.

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

"In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not."

Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed.

Jenkins, author of Jesus Wars, says that violence in the Quran is largely a defense against attack.
Courtesy of HarperOne

'Holy Amnesia'

But Jenkins says, even though the Bible is violent, Christianity and Judaism today are not for the most part.

"What happens in all religions as they grow and mature and expand, they go through a process of forgetting of the original violence, and I call this a process of holy amnesia," Jenkins says.

They make the violence symbolic: Wiping out the enemy becomes wiping out one's own sins. Jenkins says that until recently, Islam had the same sort of holy amnesia, and many Muslims interpreted jihad, for example, as an internal struggle, not physical warfare.

Andrew Bostom calls this analysis "preposterous." Bostom, editor of The Legacy of Jihad, says there's a major difference between the Bible, which describes the destruction of an enemy at a point in time, and the Quran, which urges an ongoing struggle to defeat unbelievers.

"It's an aggressive doctrine," he says. "The idea is to impose Islamic law on the globe."

Take suicide attacks, he says — a tactic that Muslim radicals have used to great effect in the U.S., Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East. It's true that suicide from depression is forbidden in Islam — but Bostom says the Quran and the Hadith, or the sayings of Muhammad, do allow self-destruction for religious reasons.

"The notion of jihad martyrdom is extolled in the Quran, Quran verse 9:1-11. And then in the Hadith, it's even more explicit. This is the highest form of jihad — to kill and to be killed in acts of jihad."

'Out Of Context'

That may be the popular notion of jihad, says Waleed El-Ansary, but it's the wrong one. El-Ansary, who teaches Islamic studies at the University of South Carolina, says the Quran explicitly condemns religious aggression and the killing of civilians. And it makes the distinction between jihad — legal warfare with the proper rules of engagement — and irjaf, or terrorism.

"All of those types of incidences — [Sept. 11], Maj. Nidal Hasan and so forth — those are all examples of irjaf, not jihad," he says. According to the Quran, he says, those who practice irjaf "are going to hell."

So what's going on here? After all, we all have images of Muslim radicals flying planes into buildings, shooting up soldiers at Fort Hood, trying to detonate a bomb on an airplane on Christmas Day. How to reconcile a peaceful Quran with these violent acts?

El-Ansary says that in the past 30 years, there's been a perfect storm that has created a violent strain of Islam. The first is political: frustration at Western intervention in the Muslim world. The second is intellectual: the rise of Wahhabi Islam, a more fundamentalist interpretation of Islam subscribed to by Osama bin Laden. El-Ansary says fundamentalists have distorted Islam for political purposes.

"Basically what they do is they take verses out of context and then use that to justify these egregious actions," he says.

El-Ansary says we are seeing more religious violence from Muslims now because the Islamic world is far more religious than is the West. Still, Jenkins says Judeo-Christian cultures shouldn't be smug. The Bible has plenty of violence.

"The scriptures are still there, dormant, but not dead," he says, "and they can be resurrected at any time. Witness the white supremacists who cite the murderous Phineas when calling for racial purity, or an anti-abortion activist when shooting a doctor who performs abortions.

In the end, the scholars can agree on one thing: The DNA of early Judaism, Christianity and Islam code for a lot of violence. Whether they can evolve out of it is another thing altogether.
Source


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feetlebaum Thu 10-Dec-15 16:01:12

@Soontobe "the Bible is quite clear that people[and I mean people, as there are different people in denominations] are not to add or subtract from the Bible."

But the Bible is the product of two thousand years of scribal addition and subtraction, and in the later centuries committee decisions on what should be in, and what should not. At least nine gospels, weren't there?

I know people like to claim the Bible as being inerrant, but given the errors and the contradictions it contains that is impossible.

@Granniebach - seriously, people don't generally leap out at you and start being aggressive about your beliefs, do they? Surely it happens when they disagree with something you have said - in other words it is a response to your actions. We atheists don't come round on a Sunday morning and knock on folk's doors hoping to talk about agnosticism or atheism, or come to that theism or deism!

Anniebach Thu 10-Dec-15 16:17:04

Not all Christians knock on doors and not all Atheists practice black magic

thatbags Thu 10-Dec-15 16:38:09

soon, biblical historians are quite clear that the bible is a collection of books written by lots of different people over long periods of time. So if there is an instruction somewhere that the collection of books are not to be added to or subtracted from, those rules have already been broken many times.

feetlebaum Fri 11-Dec-15 08:21:30

@Anniebach - 'not all atheists practise black magic' - to be honest I've never come across any that do - it would be a bit pointless if you don't believe it!

Apart from the naked midnight dancing, of course...

soontobe Fri 11-Dec-15 09:22:24

I will get to these questions at some point in the next few days.

Anniebach Fri 11-Dec-15 10:09:15

.feetlebaum, millions of Christians do knock doors trying to convert. The JW's and Mormans do.

What of atheists who campaign to close church schools ?

Elegran Fri 11-Dec-15 10:22:54

Those who think that schools should not be exclusively for one religion want them to be for all children equally. They are not out to stop those children from having ANY religion, but to stop the segregation of one faith from another, and from those whose ethics do not depend upon a single source. If they succeeded, there might not be so much intolerance of "otherness" which itself might lead to national and international peace and co-operation (perhaps!)

Anniebach Fri 11-Dec-15 10:35:56

We have an excellent Church in Wales junior school here, it is open to all faiths and atheists , the demand to close down these schools is no different to the JW's pushing their faith on you . If you want a no faith school start up a free school - think that's what their called

granjura Fri 11-Dec-15 13:38:09

Totally agree with Elegran. It's rare annie, but this time I am really upset by your comment. Children should be able to go to their LOCAL school, with their friends and neighbours- without segregation of any kind or indoctrination of any kind. Local schools/village schools supported by tax payers' money should be totally all inclusive. Religion is a private matter- and should not be part of State education at all.

With out own children, we would have had to take them away from their friends and neighbours, and drive them for miles into town if we didn't want a CofE school- and exclude/separate out children from others to do so. NO- this is wrong, truly.

Anniebach Fri 11-Dec-15 13:53:14

Sorry Granjura, would never choose to upset you. Yes I see your side of this and understand, but what of the choice of parents who are Christians and want their children to attend a faith school? I understand atheists not wanting children to attend faith schools but atheists want to stop Christians attending a faith school . We have a head of state who is supreme governor of the Church of England so Christianity in England is not a private matter to be kept within the English home

Christianity is for the minority in this country now sadly.

granjura Fri 11-Dec-15 14:24:36

Sorry too Annie- I get your point to, even if I disagree flowers

but children could be given out of school education in their own religion - and allow the main syllabus to be religion free. It doesn't meant that anyone would be prevented to learn about their religion at all.

It's nice to open CofE schools to all and non faiths- but if the day to day school syllabus is very much based on one faith- then other children either have to be 'excused' on a regular basis from parts of the curriculum (assemblies and other lessons) and be made to feel different and excluded- or join in and then it becomes just 'indoctrination' really- especially with young and vulnerable children. Like when my daughter was told, aged 5, that of course she would have been baptised as otherwise she would not be part of God's family... or when Hindu children are told, on the day of Diwali, that all Gods which are not the Christian God are wrong and idolâtry- etc.

Anniebach Fri 11-Dec-15 14:47:57

It's so difficult granjura, I would be furious if anyone told a child they should be baptised . I just have a very unorthodox way of practicing my orthodox religion grin . I was fortunate to be brought up by parents who had no problem with this , when I was ten I decided to be baptised into the Anglican faith, I wanted to choose my own Godparents, took two years ! I chose a baptist godmother and R C. Godfather . What a group at the font ,father baptist lay preacher, mother humanitarian , godmother baptist,godfather R C and my adored paternal Grandfather Christian of no church . This is what I think is important ,respect for all.

When my elder daughter was eleven she was asked to attend confirmation classes, she did and decided she wasn't ready to be confirmed , she was when she was fourteen, her decision