From the Humanist Association - discuss

Such anger from just a few . It has been said in this thread I should keep my faith within my home , which means behind closed doors. I cannot , to do so would be betraying Christ and betraying the Christians in the world who are being killed because they will not deny Christ .

I am a Christian , I try daily to follow his teachings -often fail. I believe he suffered that horrific death for people of all faiths , agnostics and atheists and thinking this did cause tears but then I recalled his words - remember if the world hates you it hated me first.

I have also be given a glimpse of what it must be like to be a Muslim in this country , a country which was Christian , has a PM who wrongly believes it still is and has a head of state who is the top dog in the CofE , every aspect of your faith is attacked .

I was thankful there have been posts from non Christians who were able to express their views in a manner I expect from humanitarians , sadly It seems the humanitarian movement also has members who hold such anger it bordered on hatred

I now question the values of humanitarianism

Indeed Iam64- perhaps those who do not live in multicultural towns are just not aware of this. And of course this is the reason why so many Muslims want to open their own schools- hence the proliferation I was talking about.

This thread was never anti religion, and never to 'attack' the Anglican Churches. I only went on to research the number of Angliccan denominations when AnnieB corrected my mistake, when I mentioned the CofE instead of the CofWales- and wondered why it seemed important at all. The intention was of course never to 'push individuals to defend their adherence to a denomination, at all, ever (and I am quite sure you know that)- but to point to the division, and the divisiveness. In the recent past, mainly in the UK, there were State Schools, CofE schools and RC schools- but now, in an increasingly multicultural and multifaith country, and with an increasing majority not being practising Christians- inisiting on keeping Faith Schools will lead to more Faiths requesting the same right (and we know that already), including Christian Creationists. And THAT, and only that, was the point of discussion here.

AnnieB- why should I not understand? I was raised a Protestant, in a family where the Catholics and the Protestants barely tolerated each other. Thank goodness we didn't have Faith schools- as it would have made that situation 1000x worse. I am Baptised and Confirmed too- and most of my family here still are both Protestants and Catholics- the only difference now that they work together, worships together- have common mariages and Baptisms and use each other's Churches when required. Ecumenism is alive and well here- and that is heart warming to see. Anti-religion me? I work with both Churches, with the greatest of mutual respect- I have made that point several times.

So, Faith Schools are divisive, in so many ways, religious and socially too and push other Faiths to insist on their own, as clearly stated in Iam64's post- and I sincerely wish that came to an end. Our society is increasingly fractured- and that is not what so many of us want for our grandchildren to grow up in.

A pity that you repeat- no-one has at all told you your Faith should be kept behind closed door. Several of us have been at pain to explain this. Anger? No anger here, just sadness that some choose to distort and twist what is being said.

The only point of discussion is about Faith Schools. Any other point made has been in response to comments made, which diverted from it.

Best go- I am having lunch with many friends, both Catholics and Protestants- to raise funds for the social actitvities their provide here (with our help) - all the local RC Priests and Protestants Vicars and staff will be there- a wonderful bunch. We do respect each other and work so well together.

Will they be segregated Granjura ?

How can they not be? If RC send their children to RC schools, and CofE to theirs, and Muslims to theirs, and Creationists to theirs ... and as Alea said (which is amazingly insulting) - every piddling religious group does to?

This thread has turned into something it was never meant to be- and it is too sad to continue. Perhaps it makes the point better than anything I could have said, and turns out to be the very best advocate for having schools without religion.

Again, as Dave Allen said...

Off to the Ecumenical Lunch now.

So I agree 'live and let live' in your own home, privately but not in schools, not in Government, not with such a strong hold on our institutions
^Time for religous tolerance, but time for it to be a private^

I wonder if these are the offending observations which have caused Anniebach such distress?
I also feel that there are many more GNetters who live in and have experience of "multicultural areas" than you suggest.

Some facts about faith schools to place against the hot air.

Plus - I don't think that faith schools would be banned. That would be impossible anyway and they would just go underground- but that they would not receive funding from state or local authority sources.

And on Religion and the state generally - Christians have nothing to fear from secularism

Terry Sanderson, NSS president commented, "There is obviously a confusion among some Christians about terminology. Secularisation – the process whereby attachment to religion drops in a society - is not the same as 'secularism'- the constitutional framework of a secular state. This poses no threat to religion; in fact it protects all religions and none from the imposition of any single religion's doctrines on society at large."

"Religion can and does thrive in secular states, as in the United States. While religiosity in the US is now starting to fall, it can hardly be claimed that religion is side-lined or that religious people are 'pushed out' of public life in America."

"The Secular Charter of the NSS states explicitly that the rights of religious people to believe and worship must be protected by law,"

And there is nothing to keep anyone behind closed doors, not from bearing witness that they are Christian (or anything else)

No Granjura , all this thread has done is moved me in favour of faith schools to protect children from the rabid humanitarian side of humanitarianism

Someone quoted Christ telling how and where to pray The Lords Prayer, very selective bible picking, they obviously forgot / haven't read his teachings to go out into the world and spread his word. How you can lunch with people of faith when you want them to live their faith behind closed doors is puzzling

It has already been explained what the use of the word "private" meant - not part of "public" institutions.

I have lived in Blackburn and I now live in East London - and faith schools, which are increasing with the introduction of "free" schools, have and will continue to create division.

This is hardly an anti-religious notion - as Luckygirl said, there are religious people feel similarly. To say that those who feel this way wish atheism to form the framework for education is a distortion of what is actually being said.

On the fear that teachers without a personal faith would ridicule the faith of their pupils - they would then be breaking the Teachers' Standards set out by the Government. This applies now to all teachers, and would presumably stay in force without change.

A quote from part of it:-

"Teachers uphold public trust in the profession and maintain high standards of ethics and behaviour, within and outside school, by:

--- treating pupils with dignity, building relationships rooted in mutual respect
---- showing tolerance of and respect for the rights of other
---- not undermining fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect, and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs
---- ensuring that personal beliefs are not expressed in ways which exploit pupils’ vulnerability or might lead them to break the law.
---- Teachers must have proper and professional regard for the ethos, policies and practices of the school in which they teach, and maintain high standards in their own attendance and punctuality."

Yes Alea, those words shocked and upset me

Elegran, you views are certainly given cause to fear the aggressive section of humanitarianism . Enjoy your lunch with people you obviously have problems with

NO_ONE IS LOCKING ANYONE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. IT IS YOUR EARS THAT ARE CLOSED TO THE MANY TIMER THAT HAS BEEN SAID.

I am out of this conversation. Banging my head on a brick wall is not my favourite occupation, so I shall stop.

Statistics can be manipulated to mean anything, though. In the OP it states that 98.6% of us don't attend church services. What it fails to point out (and is wrong in its assumption) is that, whilst regular attendance at 'established Cof E' services may only comprise 2% of 'the population' many people attend occasionally and a whole swathe of the population will be attending other Christian worship.

So to conclude from those figures that 'Britain is not a Christian country' is a nonsense.

Whether or not the C of E should be disestablished is another question.

Although do think that all schools should be secular, and that comparative religion should be taught objectively and without bias as another subject.

I think anniebach may have meant granjura not you, elegran when she said 'go and enjoy your lunch'.


Only Christians at the lunch? That is interesting, it is not that inclusive then.

Please do not raise your voice to me Elegran, your prejudices came over loud and clear in you posts without the need to raise your voice

If I have confused names again I apologise , I am really tired this morning, but I can manage to confuse names even when not tired

What is so sad is not wanting the state to support faith schools but accepting the support given to many vulnerable people by churches

I'd have said that my lack of prejudice came through in my posts. I am known for being restrained and polite, I only shout when pushed beyond a certain point.

I am tired this morning too. I went to bed after midnight ( late for me). I am trying to organise not just a lunch but a whole day meeting for Gransnet members (as inclusive as those who want to come will make it. I have no problems at all with anyone who will definitely be there, and I would have none with anyone else adding themselves either)

And, getting back to the OP, fewer than 1 in 4 primaries and only about 1 in 16 secondary schools in England are C of E schools, not one-third.

Those schools are generally over-subscribed because they have a good educational reputation, not because they indoctrinate children.

Pax, Elegran and Anniebach a simple misunderstanding and confusion of names
Perhaps when granjura returns from her lunch she can explain how she reconciles segregation at her lunch and cooperation?
Will they be segregated granjura?

How can they not be?

Oh and I do apologise for offending anybody by using " piddling little" when referring to any religions, I was thinkng of minority/ breakaway/creationist/ breakaway from breakaway etc sects and merely attempting to denote size.

Parents start attending church just to get their children into Anglican schools , no way will Anglican schools be the cause of segregation and ghettoes , the most pathetic reason I have heard of for closing these schools, where are these Anglican ghettoes in the cities that are so feared ?

This is without any allegation of anyone who has posted here , has this hysteria of segregation and ghettoes stemmed from fear of the Muslim Faith ? I think possibly that it has

Oh stop playing the victim anniebach nobody has told you that you shouldn't go to church or been a rabid humanitarian, for Heavens sake.
I am a Christian too, but just don't agree with any faith schools, they are divisive whatever you choose to say, and we would be better off with secular schools only.All faiths could continue to practise at home and in church/temple/synagogue/mosque. just because some of us don't agree with with you, your posts go on and on ( and on.)

Stop being so bossy Rosesarered , if I feel happiness , joy, sadness I will say so , you are not a forum moderator even though you display an eagerness to be so