same sex marriage-in church

I've gone.

Gonegirl I raise you Matthew %:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

If you accept this then Jesus did indeed have something to say on both homosexuality and marriage.

Sorry, Matthew 5:17

Yes well, who cares about what "the prophets" said anyway? They were in the old testament, which is mostly rubbish. Do current day church leaders really stand by that?

I doubt if Jesus was referring to any mention of homosexuality.

Gonegirl - doubting Thomas are you?

You can doubt but consider that Jesus was an Orthodox jew of the Pharisaic tradition and as such he knew his "Old Testament" well, including the Pentateuch as well as the Torah.

What the Methodists do is up to the Methodists.

The law in the UK, which is all I care about, has been reformed to end the persecution of gay people and to give gay people the same rights to set their family affairs in order as straight folk.

Which has radically transformed the social environment and life chances of gay people and kids growing up gay nowadays. I am bone deep grateful to have seen this chance happen in my lifetime.

I am not concerned with what religious denominations decide they will and will not do as long as they do not have the power to harm gay people using the law and the power of the state.

Yes well, who cares about what "the prophets" said anyway? They were in the old testament, which is mostly rubbish. Do current day church leaders really stand by that?

Well, you may be right - who does care? If you are not Christian you may well not care ( although the same rules vis homosexuality exist in most other religious traditions).
As for whether current church leaders standing by it - that depends on how far they believe in the truth and the word I suppose.

Clearly a majority in the Methodist convention do and they stand by it. As for the Church of England - thats a different matter. I suspect as with some other denominations they are heading for a schism - there will be a break between those who believe ( ainly orthodox and evangelical Christians ) and those who do not
(Progressives and liberals) .

But for Bible beliving Christians ( of all denominations) what the law and the prophets say is important.

I'll second that muffinthemoo.

abbey I have been Christian all my life. Until recently, when the serious thinking started.

I’ll third that muffin. Long live separation of state and church - I can’t think of one society where religion rules/ ruled that was a society I’d ever want to live in - especially as a woman because all main stream religions are deeply and disgustingly misogynist ( and generally homophobic as well).

The law in the UK, which is all I care about, has been reformed to end the persecution of gay people and to give gay people the same rights to set their family affairs in order as straight folk.

Who is persecuting them? When the secular law was changed ( and with it by the way the definition of marriage so that it could include same sex unions - although that has never worked as there is no act of consummation in same sex union and as such therefore there cannot be adultery . As such same sex partners cannot divorce on the grounds of adutery but heterosexual ones can . .... but thats not my point really ( it is relevant in the theological and doctrinal argument)

The point is that when the decision to legalise same sex marriage was made there was a "quadruple lock" put in place to ensure that Christians ( and other faiths) who did not agree with homosexual relationships could continue to refuse to allow marriages between same sex couples in their churches/ religious buildings because it was not in accordance with their beliefs.

That at the moment remains and the Methodists have held the red line on this.

None of this affects the rights of same sex couples to be able to marry and have their marriage registered in a secular or civil ceremony . Their legal rights are protected with that also. No one is taking anything from them or stopping them putting their family affairs in order. They are equal in the eyes of the secular law.

I am not concerned with what religious denominations decide they will and will not do as long as they do not have the power to harm gay people using the law and the power of the state.

They dont , so what are you complaining about? The issue of same sex marriage ceremonies in church is one for Christians to sort out. It doesn't affect anyone's legal rights or their standing.

an eye for an eye was a Jewish law, - if someone takes one of your sheep do not take back more than one.

Trouble is, no one really knows God. Your God might be the God the prophets believed in (rightly or wrongly) but the God of a decent living couple of people who just happen to be of the same sex, might be a loving, all-embracing God. How do you, or the church leaders know for sure who is right?

Annie forget eye for an eye! Red herring!

(unintentional red herring)

Jesus never spoke any words about homosexuality.

Gonegirl you certainly confused me ?

I don’t know if God is for or against homosexuality, neither do you ,

How far do you take a ‘loving, all-embracing God ?

I'm not sure I take him at all Annie. But others might. Certainly better than the one in the Old Testament.
Who was probably made up by a load of ancient dried up scribes. Or something.

I don’t know if God is for or against homosexuality, neither do you

That is not strictly true, although it is a matter of believe. If you believe in the Bible based faith of Christianity then you have the Bible ( Old and New Testaments) as a guide to how you view certain events and situations including the right ( or wrong) of homosexuality. You may not know, but within your belief you will have a faith that the word reveals knowledge of God and what God thinks.

( Remember, you do not shoot the messenger - I am simply explaining how this belief/faith thing works)

How far do you take a ‘loving, all-embracing God ?

There is something in Chrsitianity called "discernment" - that is a gift given by God through faith which should allow you to make a decision as the the righteousness of a particular act or situation.

The Biblical position is that God is not all loving. God hates sin. We are all sinners ( For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) However, in Christ ( Jesus) for the believer there is a redemption through belief and acceptance and living our lives to the best of our ability within the laws and words of the Bible ( Old and New Testament) because that is what Jesus did himself( he came to complete the law not change it) .

It is not the person who God hates or judges, it is his/her behaviour. ( and God will judge as that is Biblical too).

You can be homosexual if you wish but you cannot act in accordance with those feelings if you follow the law. That is the traditional, orthodox Christian position.

In the Bible it says that Marriage was ordained as a remedy for sin BUT it also says that it is a lifelong union between one man and one woman and it is ordained for family and the procreation of children. Further it says that a man shall leave his mother and cleave to his wife.

Thats before you get to the bits about not lying with a man as you would with a woman etc. etc. So Biblically it is very clear what God things if you are a Bible believing Christian.

The progressive position seeks to change that and makes arguments accordingly but I dont want to go on too long and besides many here seem to be able to give those arguments. What is lacking is the opposite side as far as I have read..

( Remember, do not shoot the messenger. I am just explaining the position . You know nothing of what I believe, do not believe, my religiosity or lack of it or what I personally think).

The God of the Old Testament?

‘You are honoured in my eyes and I love you’

"Remember, do not shoot the messenger. I am just explaining the position . You know nothing of what I believe, do not believe, my religiosity or lack of it or what I personally think)"

Tell us? Not much point otherwise.

The God of the Old Testament?

You are out of context here. This was about how God viewed his people as the precious nation for whom he would give all to gather them together. It is not related to any form in the issue being discussed.

If we are going to go down the progressive route of reinterpreting all statements and comments then I could raise you Matthew 19:12

But I wont because I am not doing the progressive reinterpretation thing.

Tell us? Not much point otherwise.

Surely there is always a point to a debate or discussion which clarify the different ideas and positions and such a debate/discussion should not rely on the personal views of the individuals involved.

I noted earlier what some posters did to those who did not share the progressive view and stated their personal opinions by the way.

I reiterate, I am simply stating the position of the traditional orthodox and evangelicals and clarifying some of the misconceptions I have seen raised .