The Pope

My dear MiL refused to believe a word against the Christian brothers. Parents did in those days of respect for people seen as their 'betters'.
DH always said that there were some very good and conscientious brothers at his school but they couldn't seem to protect the vulnerable boys. Luckily he was left alone. Will say no more other than that I'm not in the least surprised at revelations emerging.

Watching Pope Francis on tv now, remembering Pope John Paul’s visit to Ireland 40 years ago. I watched some of the visit with the sisters in the convent , they were allowed a TV set to watch the visit, the lead up to it was exciting and sad, some were to be allowed to go over to Ireland but not all, they had to wait to hear from The Mother House who went and who stayed , i so wished they could have all gone . It was the same come summer holidays , who could go home to see their families in Ireland who couldn’t , The youngest sister who was such fun said to me ‘ I really hope I will go home this year, I said so sympathetically ‘are you homesick sister’ she said ‘ no my home is where ever I am needed, I am fed up of darning my cardigans and my mother will give me some new cardigans and yes some hugs too’ . They had no money , every year our Anglican Church held a week of bread and cheese lunches for Christian Aid week, the Rev Mother would place individual coins on the refrectory table for the sisters to pay for the lunch, I ate a meal in the evening they didn’t eat again untill the following morning.

They were lovely women, so much love and a lot of laughter too.

I shouldn’t think anyone is doubting there are good and bad in all walks of life, the difference being these were crimes against children by people who pretended to be a Godlike and the VERY VERY worst part is that it was all covered up for donkey years, it is well documented that priests were moved around only to start it again in a different area
Again the mother and baby units were in some areas Ireland for sure awful places Did any see or read Philomena ?

I grew up in a very catholic household and I have to say I never remember the priest coming round ever. The only financial onus was to put money in the plate when it was passed around at mass.

The nuns at my senior convent school and catholic junior school were in the main vile, apart from one, they actively seemed to dislike children, so my heart goes out to the youngsters who were in homes that were overseen by the incongruously named Sisters of Mercy, at least as day girls we could go home at night.

My mother, although a committed catholic admitted she also suffered at her catholic school. The French protestant side of her family paid for her and her brother to go to a non denominational school but got into arguments with the Irish catholics side of the family who insisted they should attend a catholic school, the English members of the family kept out of it and in the end Irish side got their way. She would often tell me throughout my childhood how awful her catholic school was and cursed the Irish relatives for insisting she went there. However, it didn't stop her sending her own children to something similar.

I know there are two sides to the catholic church, as there generally is two sides to most things in life. I saw a kinder more compassionate side, when my mum was a widow, her church was a huge support both spiritually and socially and proved to be a real lynchpin at that time in her life. It's a shame that the very kind people within it have been tarnished by the notorious wickedness that has been swept under the carpet over the years, but therein lies a large part of the problem, particularly it seems in Ireland.

I read a good article in The Guardian recently wherein one of their Catholic journalists wrote that Pope Francis, who she said she liked very much, nevertheless prior to the Ireland visit said something along the lines "let us pray for forgiveness for the wrong doings of the past". She made the point that made her angry, and I agree, let those who carried out the abuse, or who were complicit by their silence, ask for forgiveness, don't put that onus on to everybody else.

Perhaps the abusers did pray for forgiveness.

BlueBell, what about the parents who put their daughters in those homes and didn’t even know their grandchild had died or been adopted because they had cut mother and baby out of their lives.

There were also a lot of kids who were temporarily in care after the war, in urban areas such as London and Liverpool. I imagine they were there due to financial hardship in the family. They were sent out to Canada and Australia and sadly abused by religious orders when they got there. I'm not sure their parents ever knew that their children had been earmarked to be young emigres, or possibly it was sold to them in such a way as they thought there would be more opportunities than they could possibly offer them. In any case there has been a lot of interviews with those children as adults of late and the awful abuse they suffered.

A number of, by now, elderly nuns have actually been arrested subsequent to the findings of the child abuse enquiry up here. A shocking headline to read.

I know how much religion means to many, particularly Annie, I completely understand why and I certainly wouldn't want to offend you in particular. I just find it really hard sometimes knowing that I was brought up in a religion that I was indoctrinated into and encouraged to be in thrall to, both at school and at home, knowing now that so many wrong doings were committed and swept under the carpet.

Two wrongs never made a right Anniebach and circumstances sometimes made it impossible to feed an extra mouth I guess they may have thought they were doing the child and young, often very young mother, a chance in life by sending the. Pto be looked after by those who were ‘ closer to God’ and beyond doing anything but good It’s only with hindsight we the general public know what really happened

Oh yes. I'm sure that parents thought they were doing the right thing. Guidance came from those they respected and looked up to - the church! Poor girls, poor babies, poor children, poor families.

Ilovecheese.........it was the terrible shame of it. Girls could not/should not have sex before marriage. That was the churches teaching so the girls who became pregnant either got married quickly or were sometimes sent away to have their babies and no one knew outside of the family.
I was educated in a convent school in Cork and some of the nuns there were quite wicket. It was an inclosed order ( Presentation Sisters) and so they took all their frustrations out on us girls. I was caned on a few occasions ?. My two brothers went to a Jesuit school and I remember one of them been hit with a leather strap. My father lived abroad and my mother just put up with it as I think she was too frightened to do anything about it but she was very unhappy at times. The church ruled......
Some of the nuns were lovely and when at eleven I went to another convent school in Dublin it was very different. I loved my time there. So I just want to say that some of the things you are hearing here are true.
I have lived in England since 1070 and reading some of the posts have made me think and remember stuff that I had almost forgotten. Ireland is such a different country today to the one I grew up in, its much the same as this country except that the accent Is different and boys and girls have fun?. There’s no point in me wishing that things had been different as growing up in Ireland in the 1950/60s is what has shaped me and made me the person I am and I was very happy living there. I only came to England on a holiday but like lots of others ended up staying here. There was so much going on in London and I met my husband and there was no going back then except for holidays.
I don’t think the Popes visit today will not change a thing.

Gemmag oooh you must be awfully old if you've lived in England since 1070, I expect you remember the Norman Invasion

I know you mean 1970 it just looked so funny 1070

We had the tawse,a leather belt in ALL schools in Scotland right up ntil the 70's and I know one of my English aunts says she was caned in an ordinary school in Yorkshire.thats how it was then.We cant judge yesterdays standards of discipline by todays standards.It was never right but it was accepted the same as children being hit by parents was.Yet most of us would be outraged to hear of it happening now

Terri, please don’t be concerned about offending me x

Yes my faith is at the centre of my life but I don’t have a blind faith, I was encouraged from a young age to question, to understand there has only been one perfect human being. I follow the teachings of Christ,well I try to, but this does not mean all the teachings of the church . I accept those of faith and those of no faith do wrong, I also believe no one is all evil. This has often got me into disagreements and even being mocked, so be it. I have my own opinions on these we are discussing now, I also know my opinions would cause anger in many.

Jane, I do not agree parents put their daughters into homes because the church told them too. What of the parents who didn’t have a faith? They did the same, the daughter went against her parents rule that sex before marriage was wrong and brought shame on them. Easier to blame the church and not our own ancestors.

Terri children were sent to Australia to work on farms, to be unpaid servants.

I thought the Prime Minister’s, Leo someone, speech excellent well written (maybe by a speech writer). He did not hide from any of the topics I hoped would be addressed. He is a gay man and represented his country very well.

Gemmag, i donkt understand, an enlosed order do not teach , there are orders which do such as The Ursulines. I corresponded with sisters in an enclosed order for years, I never knew which sister would reply because if the same one did it would mean a friendship.

i have known some wonderful jesuits and nuns as well.my first job was working for a woman who did amazong things for the poor in our city.
on the other hand i was beaten at age ten(1967)by a nun for not answering to the name she called me.it wasn't my name!my sojourn into catholic school lasted 2 days..my mom listened thankfully.
but this murder/abise and hidden bullshit has gone on for centuries.
and not just in ireland,uk and europe.
www.sinhalanet.net/canada-where-are-the-50000-missing-children-from-80-indian-residential-schools

if you search canadian holocoust you can learn more

this is from a clergyman
wariscrime.com/new/the-canadian-holocaust-hidden-no-longer/

Paddyann, I had a really hard canning for sliding on the school roof in the holidays, a double dose, one for sliding on the roof and the second lot for not owning up when asked. Whrn I see photographs of that school in ruins in Aberfan and part of the roof still up, I still remember the pain and remember how swollen my hand was ?

Anniebach I meant the girls from Catholic families. I remember being appalled at the grave of 700+ children under the age of 2 being discovered in Ireland.
While I'm sure there are and were decent people among the clergy there were some unforgivably bad ones.
You can talk from your experience and others from their own. Both are valid. No point in tit for tatting.

Jane, I assure you I am not tit for tatting, I disagreed with you post as you hsve with mine

I got hauled out of class aged 7 or 8 and wacked on the hand with the wooden side of the blackboard rubber. The reason, "I was looking at my assailant insolently" I was completely unaware of that I thought I had my normal face on Now I realise I must have had what is known these days as a "resting bitch face"

Jane, my experience includes a dear friend who was a priest in my church, ran the church group both my daughters went to, he was charged with child abuse

Can I just say that the fact that there are good or bad priests and nuns is not the big issue here. The fact that when the abusers were reported the Catholic Church did it’s utmost to hush it up and conceal what was going on - many, many times simply moving the perpetrators to another parish so that many more children suffered. THAT is what the Pope needs to address!

I thought the Prime Ministers Speech was so wrong, reminded me of the three times married Charles Spencer’s speech st his sisters funeral , taking a pot shot at people who couldn’t reply and were too dignified to walk out. Humiliating people is never right