The Pope

Terri, it never happened in Aberfan or the towns I moved to , not in the town where I live , some places were not affluent, I wonder if the collections were ‘missionary collections .

I have felt so strongly for most of my adult life that the Catholic Church rules by fear, and the Church of England, like the Catholic Church, is so rich and has such an abundance of wealth and yet allows people to struggle on in need. I wonder what Jesus would make of it all? I recently discovered that 'purgatory' is a complete invention of the Catholic Church and was a way of extracting even more money from people so poor that they were barely clinging to life. 'Prayers' would be said for their departed who would remain in purgatory until the relatives paid up . What a disgrace - no wonder the Church didn't want the bible translated into English so that simple people would discover that there was no mention of purgatory. There are many good people in both churches of course, but the institutions disturb me for so many reasons.

I did enjoy The Festival of Families last night

Possibly Annie. I know my parents' church in Sussex where they lived in retirement seemed to have permanent collections for places like Darfur. My mum always had a collection tin at home where she put her loose change I also discovered when I was sorting out her papers after she died she had a couple direct debits going to church related charities such as CAFOD, I never doubt other people's experiences but clearly they are not uniform

Terri, we always had missionary boxes They were not collected though, we took them to church when they were full and collected another box.

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Just read your post Rosina.... you're a little late to 'enlightenment' but you've finially seen the 'true' light. Keep up the transformation.

I too was educated by nuns and grew up in a deeply religious Catholic family. The priests of the parish were supported by the people (no other income) so we gave three times a year like everyone else. I cannot ever remember them demanding money.

Like all Catholic schools, a discreet second hand clothing service was run so that children could have uniform, shoes, a First Communion dress. The emphasis was always on discretion.
My own children attended Catholic schools here. Certainly there was a call for a voluntary contribution for all parents which paid for many things, including the previously mentioned discreet charity provision for the poorer children. Certainly a talented family of my acquaintance were given bursaries so their sons could travel abroad with the choir. As a family we had several lean years where I couldn't contribute anything at all. No one made a fuss or even mentioned it.

If there is anyone here who belives that orphan or abused children are better off being looked after by the laeity, then I suggest they look a bit harder at their own prejudices before requiring the Pope to do so..

Any religion just leaves me cold and rightly or wrongly, I do just associate it with hypocrisy, intolerance and wars. I respect others views and do not criticise believers and have actually seen how religion has given many an inner strength when dealing with grief etc, but it’s just not for me. There is good and evil in all walks of life that’s for sure and I’ve seen it 1st hand in my career ... things that have shocked me and things that restore your faith in humanity, witnessing others selflessness. History is full of horror, greed, abuse etc I just wish many would learn from it and make the world a better place. Very deep for a Bank Holiday ! Just going to go blackberry picking with grandson ....

Well said Bluekitchen .

Saggie, I am sorry you hate me, but wanting to blow me up is rather drastic surely.

annsixty
I am an athiest but brought up and confirmed in the C of E.
My father was C of E, mother Catholic. Mum's parents split when she was 6 and she was put into a convent full time until she was 17. No visit from parents, no home to go to in the holidays...1 piece of bread with a scraping of margerine for breakfast on 6 days and a dab of jam on Sundays.
Mum had nothing but contempt for the system and no truck with religion after she left. What she told me was truly horrible.
Later, after I married I was friends with a girl whose mum was a staunch Catholic, icons everywhere. I remember 'Father X' coming to her house wearing an astrakaan hat and a benevolent smile. He came, not to give but to collect dues. Sfter a cup of tea and some mealy-mouthed words of 'comfort', he left, ruddy cheeked from the well stoked fire plus 'a nip if you have it', pound notes in his pocket and 'Bless you' lingering in the air.
This was a family whose father drove a truck, mother cleaned houses, their 4 children were a credit to them but none followed any religion.
That priest was only ever seen visiting parishioners when collecting money and that's a fact.

Saggi
I couldn't agree more.

Obviously very staunch catholics here! Child abuse happens. It's inexcusable wherever it happens. It has been shown to be very widespread in a large wealthy organisation, the Catholic Church, which purports to be 'good' and has had enormous power over vast swathes of poor people over the years. That's what makes it so shocking. The blind faith of decent people who genuinely respected and looked up to the priests and nuns.
My DH didn't tell his parents what he saw was going on as he knew he'd never be believed and would be punished for even saying so. Just what so many people are now reporting as the child abuse investigation goes on. It's so sad.

Of course children can be better off being raised by decent people who aren't abusers.
Fact, not prejudice.
There are good and bad in all areas, but within the church... well.. just beyond contempt.

Gabriella, so sad to read about your mother, if her own mother had protected her how different her life could have been.

MissAdventure may I ask if you have a faith or are you an atheist?

Child abuse was and is endemic everywhere where children are left to the care of strangers or people who cannot care for themselves. Anyone ever read Billy Connolly on the subject of the abuse he suffered as a child?
What about the childrens homes in Wales where a number of people were eventually prosecuted over a long period of years?

What about the great public schools which allowed older boys to beat younger boys for several hundred years?

What about the asylums and mental health hospitals? the homes for the learning disabled? Hardly ever in the care of the religious orders by the way,

Bottom line here. The religious orders cared for the unwanted children of children who may themselves have been unwanted. Some of those Nuns and Brothers were abused themselves and went on to abuse others. Of that there is no doubt. But this is and was about power not faith.

Again I say, do you really think the current systems for looked after children and the children of the very poor are better because the laeity are in charge now?

I'm an agnostic, I would say, Annie.

Surely then, if someone without faith abuses, that too is about power, and nothing to do with lack of faith?

Actually, the present pope is taking a very hard line on many things, including cases of abuse by priests or nuns, so I find it entirely likely that he will listen to anyone who has a complaint of that nature during his visit to Ireland.

When I lived in Scotland it was common for clergymen of all denominations to visit their parishioners, or send members of the congregation to do so to collect "dues".

As á Catholic I get very tired of this constant criticism of the Catholic church, whilst no Protestant seems very willing to mention abuse of any kind perputated by Protestant ministers or priests.

Unfortunately, sexual abuse has and does occur in any community.

And why criticise the Pope for spending money on visits? Part of his job is seeing what is actually going on in the universal church which he cannot do sitting in the Vatican.

It is an age old argument that the church could spend its money differently, and sometimes more wisely, but just giving money to those in need, or the victims of abuse does not solve the underlying problems, which Pope Francis is IMO genuinely attempting to address.

Rosina and Saggi I agree with both of you, religious institutions of all types are patriarchal, domineering intent on keeping the population and in particular women, under control. The Catholic Church in particular have a bad record of this right back in history ( from the inquisition to present day) when allegedly celebate men try to control women’s fertility and sexuality through fear and intimidation. ( not so different from radical Islam) the sooner the world becomes secular and eschews all religions as ‘ fake news’ the better off the human race will be!

Thank you MissAdventure, I asked you because I thought I would get a calm reply ?

I am curious why people who have no faith therefore do not believe in God and the teachings of Christ expect those within a church to behave differently from any Jo Bloggs , if all the Christian church stands for is nothing but lies why expect anything but lies

In 1950 I visited Rome. It was still in ruins and there were beggars and wounded soldiers every where. We went into the Vatican treasure house where there was untold wealth and jewels. Outside we gave a poor old woman in black some lira. She spent it on candles even though she looked hungry.
Some years later in. Spanish hill top village the inhabitants had no water supply and were ,toiling up hill to the only standpipe. Yet the church was being renovated and gilded .
That is the Roman Catholic religion.
I am an atheist but do have Christian principles.

Bijou, how can you share the principles of a man you don’t believe in

Well, for me, Annie I would expect a Christian to at least try not to commit possibly the worst sin by abusing a child.
I mean, I know nobody is perfect, but its hardly in the same league as accidentally swearing if you hit your thumb with a hammer..