The Pope

Anniebach
Thanks for your comment Annie. Mum's mother was Spanish and went back to Catalonia after she and 'pops' split. He was a wine merchant and thought it unsuitable to have her at home when his wife left.
Mum made it her mission to give us the home life she craved but never had. I can never thank her enough.
This was in Liverpool, St Margarets Convent.

With regard to the children sent to Australia, I remember watching an interview some years ago. It was with a man who was told his parents were dead and he was sent to Australia to work on a farm (nothing to do with any church), he was abused and beaten. By the time he found out he had been lied to his parents were dead. He started to cry, the (Australian) interviewer, put his hand on his shoulder and motioned for the cameraman to stop filming. The image of that interviewers compassion has always stayed with me.

Then you believe in Christianity surely MissAdventure ?

I am trying to understand, for me to say I don’t believe in Christ is rather like I don’t believe in Father Christmas but expect gifts .

As a Christian I am angry that fellow Christians can go against Christ’s teachings as with child abusers, but don’t understand how anyone who doesn’t believe in Christ can expect his teachings to be lived by .

If this makes sense, which I doubt it does.

Not to mention the eldest son being given to the priesthood (that was Ireland I don’t know about here) no choice just given
All religions are businesses which I personally prefer to keep away from
I try to live a decent life made many mistakes along the way but have always seen the error of what I ve done and made sure I tried blooming hard not to do it again I didn’t need a priest to tell me or forgive me saying some prayers won’t alter the fact I ve made a mistake neither will saying sorry through a third person, the only way is to realise you were wrong is make sure it never happens again
The worst thing about all this is these people were looked up to, they had no excuses, they were knowledgable, they were pious, they were teaching goodness and doing badness

There are so many strands Child abuse, Child cruelt, Mother and child separation, babies killed and put in unmarked trenches, children sent overseas away from their families, lied to, naterialism, stealing off the poor It goes on and on in fact just about everything expected of the congregation has been done by their leaders and betters and this goes for all religions I don’t think there’s a stick to put between them
I don’t know if there’s a God I like to think there is, and then an afterlife heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo paradise I feel these are all told us to keep us in line I d love to think there is and it’s something better than what’s going on down here but I don’t count on it I m just trying to do what I can in the best way possible for me my family and anyone else that crosses my path mentally or physically

Just ONE act of cruelty and abuse is not acceptable.Not interested in Pope, Catholicism or any other religion, but abuse of any kind is to be condemned.

Your most welcome Gabriella, I so understand because I was part of a devout Christian family where love for and of God was the core . Not Roman Catholic but Baptist, my father told me of a meal time where they all trouped into the kitchen for dinner , porridge ! my grandma had taken the evening meal to a family where the father had been killed in a mining accident, the children were hungry , this is what Christ asks of us.

Phew! One thing I don’t think Gransnet should do on these forums, is delete. There is such a thing as free speech and this should be allowed - who has a right to censor on this forum - in my opinion free speech must always be allowed.

Anniebach
Rather like the part in 'Little Women' (Mary Louise Alcott) where the 4 sisters give up their buckwheat pancakes and other breakfast foods on Christmas morning to give to a poor German mother and children. They lit a fire, stuffed broken window panes with rags and fed and clothed the baby. 'You are angels' she said, in German.

I believe in people doing whatever it takes to make them happy and content, Annie, and not harming anyone else.
Whether that means having faith in God, or dancing widdershins round a Kirk, I'm happy for them.

The Christian faith or any other faith doesn't own good behaviour. Its entirely possible to be a good, kind person doing their best for others without adhering to any formalised religion at all.

I was a very devout Catholic in my childhood. I also had a keen interest in history particularly renaissance Italy. The appalling abuses of power, the complete machinations of those jockeying to be top dog, the utter disregard for human suffering and the exploitation of those poor souls they should have been protecting was appalling and it's as true in recent history as it was then. They should have put their house in order long long ago - it makes so angry that the church I loved is complicit in vile practices aiding and abetting abusers who destroy peoples' lives and who were/are protected by the church instead of being brought to justice. The Catholic Church and all other organisations who harbour abusers only have themselves to blame when people turn away.

Anniebach, much of my family is Baptist but I do not go to church. You don't have to believe there is a God to be a good person. I try to help anyone I can and do my best not hurt anyone's feelings. I find being honest easy (I worked in a bank for most of my working life!). I hope we are just having a discussion and not upsetting anyone.

Yes Gabriella , very much like that x

Although I was brought up a Catholic and went to a number
of convents (where most of the nuns were extremely kind).
I stopped being a Catholic due to the mysoginistic and
patenistic attitude of the clergy in regards to birth control.

Saggi I have held those views for a very long time, but the matter or purgatory was part of a recent programme about faith in the Middle Ages. I was dumbfounded that such a terrible and threatening 'trick' would be perpetrated on grieving and poverty stricken people. I don't know if prayers are still said specifically for this reason now in the Catholic Church. I have no wish to denigrate faith, having met Christians who live the most exemplary lives, but the establishment of the church is so questionable to me in the way it deals with - or chooses to ignore - exploitation, poverty and need.

Sorry, that should have been “paternalistic”.

Again, with many despicable acts that have taken place over the centuries and still taking place, appears the word 'religion'.

My sympathies are for all the good, honest, caring nuns and priests who knew about the abuse but were obliged by the hierarchy to keep quiet and could do little to stop it.

I have never said people who do not go to church or are atheists are bad people or claimed all who go to church are good people, we are talking sbout human beings and there are good and not good in all walks of life , I can except this some here cannot.

We do not have to believe in God to be a good person, what I have been trying to understand is why a person who doesn’t believe in God or try to follow the teachings of Christ but are good people condemn those in the church for not living by their faith which the person doesn’t believe in, doesn’t make sense to me , it’s criticising what doesn’t exist

What is the point of condemning things in the Middle Ages ? Waste of time and energy .

I am amused someone who abhores bad deeds wants to blow people up.

Liz, I would be upset if I thought I was upsetting anyone,

Its sheer hypocrisy, Annie, that's what I personally object to.
Of course, all humans fall down; that is human nature.
To use a cloak of religion to cover up the most foul deeds is abhorrent, whether I personally believe in God or not.
Much the same as Saville, using his position of trust to gain access to children.

I’m agnostic by the way. Like a dung beetle knowing there’s something really huge there looming above but unable to comprehend what on earth it could be. The elephant on the other hand may well be able to see the beetle. (This doesn’t mean I believe God is an elephant!)

The commandments and rules whether of Christianity, Islam, Hindus or Pagan are basically the same. Harm none, try to forgive if not forget and be generous and help others where you can. You don’t need to believe in a deity to want to live by these rules.

Nfk, if only it was that simple, we have to accept the vows of Obedience and the confessional are part of the faith of some. I go at times to confession, not because of forgiveness from a priest but it helps me talk things through. Obedience to the church ? I couldn’t take such a vow.

Nfk, I understand your views on helping others etc, but to follow Christ’s teachings for me means the whole lot, love God with all your heart, pray, I go to prepare a place for you, if the world hates you remember it hated me first,

Hope this explains the differences between us ?

I have worked with nuns for over 50 years and have never come across any kind of abuse, only love, respect and kindness towards the elderly they care for. Yes, the abuse scandal is truly awful but we shouldn’t forget the wonderful work done by thousands of priests and nuns throughout the world and for very little reward!