As an agnostic

I am far from cynical Grannie Annie and try hard not judge anyone - you rarely know what is going on in other lives and, getting older, am more inclined to see every point of view. However, those are the facts; the C of E is phenomenally rich and, although there are without doubt hundreds of ministers who try to ease the burdens of those around them, how much more could be done if the Church of England were more open handed with the wealth and passed some on to its own 'Clerks in Holy Orders'? ( A local vicar was a friend; like you he had to vacate his detached house, and had to apply to the local housing department when he retired. I saw this as such a slap in the face as the Church had many properties in the area of London where we lived, and by vacating his home - at the Church's request - they had made him one of the homeless.) This is not a tirade against local ministers; I mentioned the Church of England, the controlling body. There is never an easy answer; so many opinions that are formed through personal experience.

Oh - and which 'individuals' did I criticise?

No offence taken, all I ask is priests and nuns who spend their lives in the service of God and therefore in the service of man are not judged as living the life of Riley, they are working around the world, caring for Street children, teaching children in church schools where the country do not provide schools. In this country they work in prisons, hospitals, hospices, care homes , in the community , they baptise babies, bury the dead. Have bingo nights in their church halls, work in food banks. Please don’t judge all by the actions of some.

Rosina, I did not say that you were cynical. (Nor did I refer to "individuals".) Relax. Christmas is for everyone - the greedy, the good and the generous, especially sinners like me.

Has any one mentioned the Ten Commandments? God or not, these are principles to live by.

Aren't churches connected to breweries or vice-versa, the demon drink and all that where the roots of most of the problems lie but are never spoken about during lessons and services ?

I'd rather follow people like Gandhi " Live as if you were to die tomorrow "-----a great man in his time who was the recipient of many Nobel prizes. A true Hindu.

He opened his arms to all religion and his main goal was to promote peace in the world not just to his own sect. He didn't need a church nor all the trappings that go with them.

An example is the Vatican, full of riches and enough to feed the poor and starving yet the messages we hear are to stamp out starvation and suffering quoted by the Pope himself while there's enough gold inside that building to choke a goat----what's that about ?

I have never been inside the Vatican so will leave it to those who have to comment

I think there was a Jesus and he had some really worthwhile messages for us. However, I have a real problem with virgin births and physical resurrections. It was three little children singing Carols and offering chocolates at my door who enticed me to church over Christmas which saved me from tears of lonelines and suicidal thoughts. Aren't.

Ooooops! Amen!

My husband was a C of E priest. He earnt about 24 K and we had a tied house. He is now retired and his pension is 8 K. He worked in the church for 31 years full time 6 days a week and loved it. We were very fortunate as I was a GP and was well paid s o we could easily support our 5 children. No ,vicars are not overpaid.

Sulis for me , A virgin birth or not, he was born and he was crucified, what matters is he lived and we have his teachings and his promises , we are free to accept or deny x

Yes it a good comment Annie

Many faiths have a 'figure head'. They are all different so maybe they are an interpretation of the same thing. Something could be out there...but what? I am a very spiritual person but not religious. I do believe in reincarnation. I have to say that the words of the pope and the bishop of London have impressed me...so different to those that have been before....

Sulis, have you looked into the evidence for the resurrection? E g
www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection
or
The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (Case for ... Series) www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01863JLK2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_74NiCbJVWJ5Q0?tag=gransnetforum-21

I am finding it hard this year with the church. I listened to the Pope talking about material things and could only think of the untold treasures and wealth which dominate the Vatican. There are priceless treasures from all over the world and, whilst I guess you could argue they are being taken care of, it just seems wrong. Then I listened to another religious person (think it was the Arch Bish of Canterbury) talking about the many people helping the homeless which was apparently "the love of God". It seemed to me that it was more about the love of humans as many of the helpers don't even believe in God. I also wondered why God would let so many people have no homes if he loved us so much.
Never have I felt so jaded about it all even though up to now I have quietly believed implicitly.

I am usually pretty religiously tolerant, but to have the Pope telling people to "live more simply" was a bit of a corker, surrounded as he is by priceless art, jewellery, buildings, robes, icons etc. etc.

But of course many churches do lots of good amongst the disadvantaged. However the cathedral near us spends a lot of time raising money for the cathedral itself (understandable - they have a precious old building to preserve), but unfortunately they do very little for the local community's homeless and other disadvantaged folk. I think there should be room for both.

There is not a thing The Pope can do about the wealth of the Vatican , he doesn’t live in the apartments kept for the Popes.

We need our Cathedrals, should Westninster Abby and St.Pauls be left to fall into ruins ? Wells Cathedral, St,David’s Cathedral and the others . I do understand now we are a secular country but there are still people who want and need our churches, we have needs too.

There is actually zero evidence that Jesus ever existed - and, as we all know, the Romans were great record keepers. I have no time for any religion, however I do have time for religous institutions as, here in Bristol, they are the ones who provide the vast majority of services for the homeless and disadvantaged. Does anyone seriously think that historical treasures (that are carefully looked after by the Church) should be sold off to help what would be a very small number of people? The Vatican took in refugees during the recent Syrian crisis, I generally have no time for catholics but the current pope, at least, seems to practise what he preaches.

I have no problem with maintaining the beautiful historic buildings and recognise what a huge challenge this is. But alongside this, most cathedrals have some sort of charitable outreach - quite rightly - but this cathedral seems not to have this - and I think that is a shame, and rather unusual.

As for the vatican etc. - I do think that the RC hierarchy could make choices to get rid of some of their wealth and direct it to good causes.

icanhandthemback don’t despair, God doesn’t make people homeless and choose others to have homes . Man causes homelessness, God doesn’t choose who will be alcoholics , drug addicts, mentally ill, lazy, cheats , liars or evict them from houses, man does .

May I give two quotes , not preaching honestly ,

1. Love of money is the root of evil.

2. You cannot serve God and mammon .

And to quote Gandhi

There is enough on earth for everyone’s need , but not enough for everyone greeds .

If we are all honest what don we spend at Christmas , I have read
Twenty billion , how many homes could we build x

Anniebach, excellent posts.

I find that some agnostics seem to have the need to condemn those who worship in churches. I can only presume it is to justify their unbelief. Why?
Sad to read the post on Christmas Day.

Like with all things in life we can ignore the enormous good and point out the shortcomings which will always be there in any organisation or individual.

The only important thing in life is the searching for a personal relationship or further development with God (love) and our neighbours.

Luckygirl, now I understand, and I agree , the churches and cathedrals I know of do both. But we should also remember Church attendance is dropping, the money isn’t going in for repairs.

I accept many will disagree with me but this country needs to turn back to God,

The Church Of England is selling off properties and Churches in order to keep some Churches open. Our local multi faith group works effectively with parishioners, the homeless, the disaffected and with refugees and asylum seekers. The mosques run food kitchens for the homeless in our town.
I understand some criticisms of organised religion but never ceased to be amazed at the ignorance of basic information eg, someone says they never met a poor pries

I

. The Vatican Bank has $8 billion in assets. The Vatican Bank, which has about $8 billion in assets, has often been at the center of scandal and corruption since it was founded in 1942. Pope Benedict began the process of cleaning the bank up, and Francis has continued that work.24 Sep 2015...

(copied by Googling it).

(Sorry, pressed the wrong button) never met a poor Priest or vicar. I suspect they haven’t known many priests or vicars. They are not well paid, work very hard and live in tied houses. Our old vicarage probably costs a lot to heat!