The Big Bang, Darwin and the God of the Gaps

???

That is the Universal Question

Thanks Alegrias1 for a fresh thread on 'science and the god of gaps'.
This Polkinghorne chap seemd interesting, a man of God and a man of science. I'll have a look.

I like Jeff Goldblum's words from Jurrasic Park: "God creates dinosaurs. God kills dinosaurs. God makes man. Man kills God. Man makes dinosaurs."
Does this sum up where our civilization is at? Religion caused all sorts of problems (subjegation of the masses, wars, etc) so we are replacing institutional religion (God if you like) with a faith in science (is this humanism?).
Science has blessed us with an easier life, medicines, cheap food and obesity in the west (whilst the other half the planet die of starvation), cheap modern plastic materials (that are killing our planet), mass personal transportation (cars) runnjng on fossil fuels (supposedly causing climate change) and let's not forget tge blessing of the nuclear age. Cheap nuclear energy (Chernobyl, Three Mile Island) and the threat of all out nuclear war that has, so far, prevented a 3rd world war. It's great to have the internet and modern communications, really good for exploiting the weak and vulnerable (scammers, internet fraud, pornography, loss of privacy). We have yet to make dinosaurs.
Again quoting Jeff Goldblum "We were so busy asking could we, we forgot ask should we".

Very good post Holysox. I particularly loved your Jurassic Park references. One of my favourite films!

I don't base my ideas on the relevance of science to religious belief on quotes from adventure films. I don't think Polkinghorne did either.

Science isn't there to replace religious belief; most scientists in my experience acknowledge that science doesn't try to explain whether God exists or not, they try to explain how the world works. Even Dawkins describes himself as an agnostic in The God Delusion.

I don't get the "religion causes problems but science is bad too" debate. Both sides are being extreme. Only people cause problems, whether they are scientists or not. I can live without a belief in an afterlife, but I can't live without penicillin and a COVID vaccine.

I love that poster, Alegrias1 - fascinating.
I think I shall buy one for Gdcs. I’ve found very similar online.

Witzend

I love that poster, Alegrias1 - fascinating.
I think I shall buy one for Gdcs. I’ve found very similar online.

Its on the wall in our spare room Witzend. Always something new to look at !

Science is knowledge. Knowledge of what is?, and what happens when? , tested by trying out what would happen if? . Without it we would be ignorant, and still think that thunder is God throwing thunderbolts at someone who has annoyed him.

That knowledge is gained by patiently observing, thinking, testing tentative conclusions and observing afresh whether the tentative thoughts are still valid in all situations.

Scientists have been doing that for millennia, from the first ones who observed the seasons and recorded their progression, counting the days, and made a calendar from which the date could be chosen when seeds could be planted in advance of spring, ready to shoot into growth at the first faint warmth.

Designing and making consumer goods or anything else using what the knowledge that scientists have found out isn't done by the scientists, but by industrialists and entrepreneurs. That knowledge cannot be put back into the fog of unknowledge, and as it is impossible to know in advance what you are going to find out by asking what if , you can only avoid someone getting to know something by banning ALL questions.

Do anti-scientists really want that kind of a world, where questions are illegal and answered only by "God made it so, and we don't need to know how it all works?"

Totally agree with Alegrias1 and Elegran - it's not science that's bad but people.
As a Christian I would disagree in part with the statement that science is not there to replace belief in God when a lot of posters here are saying they 'believe' in Evolution so there is no God. They lean on 'clever people', like Richard Dawkins, who claim Darwin's theory explains the emergence of life without a need of a creator. As I quipped 'man killed god'!
I worry that Governments pour huge sums of money into science to give us new insights not just for a 'better world' - but to keep religion at bay. Science certainly loosened the grip of Religion on western society giving people more freedom (actually I would agree with this). I'm all for science but it would be nice occasionally to report findings on telling us how amazing our universe has been made. The structure and order we find as we unpeel the layers of nature point to intelligent creation. Well to me anyway.
'Man killed God' - actually we already tried this 2000 years - but it didn't work. Jesus rose again on the third day. He is now busy working on a new creation...

Alegrias1

Best picture in the world. But I would think that, I'm not very bright.

Doesn't need supernatural beings, but doesn't stop anyone believing in them either, if they want to.

I love the poster too but it's the tree of life. Should say 'Spirit of God' rather than 'Origin of life' at the bottom as His Spirit flows into all living things. It clearly shows God created all things individually.

It clearly shows God created all things individually.

He's a busy chap, isn't he?

I don't believe in evolution any more than I believe in gravity. I've read Origin of Species and many books published since then that present a scientific explanation of how it works and I understand the scientific evidence behind it.

I don't lean on "clever people" like Dawkins. I am "clever people" like Dawkins.

I believe in magic. Yesterday’s magic is tomorrow’s science. There is so much to discover and learn. Though I am obviously a bit thick by someone’s standards.

Does anyone really know the truth ?.
At the end of the day we are here and we don`t need to question it just enjoy life as we know it.

Going to hide under a bunker for a while.

I don't know whether "God" exists or not, and if he/she/it does exist, I don't know in what form. It is possible that when I am no longer constrained by being confined to living in this universe, I will find out, but it may be (and it seems to me more likely) that I won't, that I will cease to exist myself and merge back into the stardust that provided the atoms and molecules of the elements from which my body is made.

My mind is made of a lifetime of sensations from my senses and of connections between the "trillions of synapses in the brain: Each one of more than 100 billion neurons may be connected to hundreds of other cells by as many as 10,000 synapses. " When the blood supply to my brain finally fails, all those synapses will die, and with them my consciousness. I have no idea how I would be able to experience a new kind of consciousness without them.

God or evolution? It depends what the thing you call "God" actually is. A benevolent old man with a beard, taking care of the helpless children in his creation? Mother Nature, bringing forth progeny and providing food and nurture for them? A tyrant demanding worship and sacrifice? A blind and uncaring conveyer belt producing millions of individuals without any HR system to take care of them? An experimenter who set up a self-replicating creation machine, with built-in variation here and there to ensure that the organisms it produced would self-select automatically for suitability to the environment, and who then sat back to watch neutrally?

Take your pick. We have a complex brain which can assimilate vast amounts of information, from our own senses and those of others who have passed it on to us, and put it together using those millions of synapses to form an opinion. Alternatively, we can decide that we will never have enough information to be certain.

It's a wise child that knows its father. Or knows the creator of its earliest ancestor.

I am a humanist but was a Christian until I saw the light Isn’t it usually the other way around? This doesn’t mean that I dismiss all religion, I simply do not know whether there is a God, but from what I have learned and read, I believe that the likelihood is that there isn’t, and live my life accordingly.
I think dialogue about religion and science is so interesting, and am fascinated to read how scientists who are Christians, like John Polkinghorne, renowned physicist turned clergyman (died last year) reconcile the two. He incidentally believed in Evolution, but just had different take on it. Well worth reading.

If John Polkinghorne could reconcile science and religion to such an extent then there must surely be some elements which are worth consideration for us all, whether or not we have a faith.

I'm not a quantum physicist! but I do have a friend who is and he is an atheist. When/if we meet up again I must ask him what he thought of Polkinghorne's views and the God-of-the-Gaps

Didn't Darwin come back to his Christian faith before he died? As I mentioned previously, it could be like taking out an insurance policy because we just do not know if there is anything or any being more than this.

Didn't Darwin come back to his Christian faith before he died? Nope. Made up by some woman called Lady Hope. Denied by his children, who were there. He was never an atheist anyway, his relationship with religion was quite complex as far as I understand.

The insurance policy thing is Pascal's Wager. You're in good company, Callistemon.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

I agree Callistemon about some elements worth considering, faith or not. I don’t believe you can have a fruitful dialogue with those who don’t share the same point view if you don’t understand a little of theirs.
From what I have read of Polkinghorne he was not at all confrontational. I am very suspicious of those who claim to have all the answers and are unyieldingly dogmatic, even to the extent of seemingly knowing God’s mind on many ethical dilemmas.

Ah ha! Pascal’s Wager. Seems quite tempting but, if I decide to go along the “god route” whilst really only doing so in case it turns out to be true, would god be fooled, and if he was, what about honesty and justice? If he isn’t fooled I’d be thrown out anyway ?

If we are the result of selective breeding I’d like to have a word or two with the organiser about inherited diseases.

In 1927, George Lemaitre, proposed that the Universe began as a large, pregnant and primeval atom, exploding and sending out the smaller atoms that we see today - the original proposer of the Big Bang Theory, although he went largely unnoticed at the time. He was a Belgian priest and scientist.

Greeneyedgirl, A believing physicist would say & believe that God had given/ provide them with the ability to be so.

Jocelyn Bell Burnell. My hero . She has a different take on it.

www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/366/Jocelyn-Bell-Burnell

PippaZ

In 1927, George Lemaitre, proposed that the Universe began as a large, pregnant and primeval atom, exploding and sending out the smaller atoms that we see today - the original proposer of the Big Bang Theory, although he went largely unnoticed at the time. He was a Belgian priest and scientist.

But how did that get there in the first place?

I fear it is all getting too much for me.

Nobody knows how it got there. Nobody knows what was there before. Physicists are the first to say that. So, it all depends on what your next thought is;

"we don't know yet, but we might one day. Lets keep doing the experiments." - scientific thinking

"It must be God then" - religious thinking

I will hedge my bets