Canon Andrew Hindley

Anniebach

Are the Clergy protected ?

Yes, I explained it all in a further back comment. Basically there are four categories under which a person may complain. Most of us probably would not qualify.

I was brought up in the CofE and it’s parables, psalms and good use of language alongside the expectation that we are all responsible for caring for others, especially those less fortunate hasn’t left me.
My faith about the protection of children is in adequate safeguarding. Anyone who has worked in safeguarding, especially police, social workers, paediatricians, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists etc will have been involved with adults and children who were sexually abused by those whose duty was to protect them. It could be a family member, a priest, teacher, doctor, police officer, social worker, imam, - it could be anybody. But, people who were abused in Churches, or in other places by so called men of god, carry particular pain, often shrouded in shame

I don’t believe in a god of any persuasion….religionis a man made concept to keep the peasants under control.It worked for centuries but as people became more educated and information more available to even the poorest it started to lose its hold.Churches get emptier by the week and congregations older. Just look at the mess the world is in over religions.

fancythat

MissAdventure

That doesn't help children or vulnerable people in the here and now, though.

No, those verses do not.

I perhaps should have linked to posts by OutwardsandUpwards above.

Apologies for the confusion.

Thanks for replying . I can't argue with the bible, but I will add that I'm sure if many people who are clergy read it and lived it, they would not bully or abuse.

People need to know that they are not protected by the church of England. In the past I have attended an Anglican church thinking that, at least it's got some governance and protection because it's The CofE! I was very wrong and mistaken.

Now I know there is no protection for not one single man, woman or child in its congregation UNLESS they have a witness, are on the PCC, are an Arch Deacon or are a warden. THOSE are the only ways you can complain about any misconduct.

How many of us can tick those boxes? I don't.

I now look back on some of the incredible behaviour I have experienced by people in the CofE church who should know better and I get it. Oh, I get it. They had a sense of power and thought they would get away with their AWFUL behaviour.

There are also some very nice people. But I feel bad for them now I know they won't be able to complain if anything bad happens to them.

paddyann54

I don’t believe in a god of any persuasion….religionis a man made concept to keep the peasants under control.It worked for centuries but as people became more educated and information more available to even the poorest it started to lose its hold.Churches get emptier by the week and congregations older. Just look at the mess the world is in over religions.

Are you suggesting life is better in countries without any religion, Russia, China, North Korea.

Hmm, not a terribly convincing argument.

Anniebach

Too easy to quote scripture, those verses applied to homosexuality before 1967

I would not have any answer myself, or from God, that you personally would be happier with.
Or most people come to that.

The Bible verses were specifically answering posts by OnwardandUpward.

Anniebach

Too easy to quote scripture, those verses applied to homosexuality before 1967

Please explain to me, others may understand, what you mean? The Pope takes a "love the sinner and condemn the sin" stance to out of marriage opposite gender sex, including homosexuality

OnwardandUpward

fancythat

MissAdventure

That doesn't help children or vulnerable people in the here and now, though.

No, those verses do not.

I perhaps should have linked to posts by OutwardsandUpwards above.

Apologies for the confusion.

Thanks for replying . I can't argue with the bible, but I will add that I'm sure if many people who are clergy read it and lived it, they would not bully or abuse.

People need to know that they are not protected by the church of England. In the past I have attended an Anglican church thinking that, at least it's got some governance and protection because it's The CofE! I was very wrong and mistaken.

Now I know there is no protection for not one single man, woman or child in its congregation UNLESS they have a witness, are on the PCC, are an Arch Deacon or are a warden. THOSE are the only ways you can complain about any misconduct.

How many of us can tick those boxes? I don't.

I now look back on some of the incredible behaviour I have experienced by people in the CofE church who should know better and I get it. Oh, I get it. They had a sense of power and thought they would get away with their AWFUL behaviour.

There are also some very nice people. But I feel bad for them now I know they won't be able to complain if anything bad happens to them.

Looking at it all from another angle, and it has probably been said on this thread already, a witness is essentially needed in all non church cases too, for a positive outcome, for a rape and sexual abuse court case?

That sounds trite but it is not supposed to be.
I agree with everyone that it shouldnt all necessarily need a witness.

I know the JW's also need a witness (maybe other religions too?) But nothing would happen if a witness was there, that's the whole reason why things are often said quietly so no one else can hear, or done sneakily so no one else could see...

It's always the bad behaviour of some who ruin it for the others. I'm sure there are some good ones, but we who know the truth have to warn against the baddies and be discerning of character.

I am highlighting this out of a duty to speak the truth plainly for all to know, we will not go backwards, so the C of E needs to move forwards if it wants to be relevant.

www.leics.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault-investigation/

I think I have now gone full circle.
I think I am back to my point of, the police couldnt convict him.

It's a fact that those who have a history of being abused in childhood are far more likely to continue being victimized as adults. Not all abuse is sexual.

My point is, the one place anyone should feel safe is a church.

I agree with both points.

The one place a child should be safe and should feel safe is in
the home

fancythat

www.leics.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault-investigation/

I think I have now gone full circle.
I think I am back to my point of, the police couldnt convict him.

I understand that the police couldn't convict. This often happens when the CPS can't find enough evidence, but my issue isn't with the (secular) police, but the church, who have their own discipline in the church of England, called the Clergy Discipline Measure. I don't think it adequate that the CDM will only treat a complaint seriously only if a person meets the four criteria that I mentioned earlier.

People could feel safe in a CofE church if they knew they would be listened to and heard, so that if there was the merest hint of bullying or abuse, it would be stamped on.

I also think if those in authority did not have so much power and know that it's not easy to make a complaint or be heard, they would be a lot less likely to bully or abuse in the first place.

Bullying is from the top down in the CofE. I read a report about how bad it is working for them and while I'm truly sorry for them having such a toxic work environment, I don't wish to be a recipient of their culture, nor do I think it should be left unsaid that anyone who is abused or bullied cannot complain and be heard unless they meet that narrow window of "suitableness"

Anniebach

The one place a child should be safe and should feel safe is in
the home

Definitely at home, yes.

But the discussion is about church, so that's why I only said church.

I made a mistake: I meant to say I also think if those in authority did not have so much power and know that it is easy to make a complaint or be heard, they would be a lot less likely to bully or abuse in the first place.

Iam64

I was brought up in the CofE and it’s parables, psalms and good use of language alongside the expectation that we are all responsible for caring for others, especially those less fortunate hasn’t left me.
My faith about the protection of children is in adequate safeguarding. Anyone who has worked in safeguarding, especially police, social workers, paediatricians, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists etc will have been involved with adults and children who were sexually abused by those whose duty was to protect them. It could be a family member, a priest, teacher, doctor, police officer, social worker, imam, - it could be anybody. But, people who were abused in Churches, or in other places by so called men of god, carry particular pain, often shrouded in shame

I was often in the C of E as a child .

Church abuse, not just CofE happens. I would have thought that a smaller church would be less safe that a large organisation, but I definitely think I was wrong in thinking that.

Yes it's true that people who were abused in churches or by "so called men of God" carry particular pain.

Add to that the pain of not being believed because the man (or person) is "of God".

Then the lies told by the "person of God" to cover up, which people believe because of their "importance". Then the person abused has the hatred of others to deal with on top of the fact that they were abused.

Then the low self esteem and alienation that makes them a target to be more likely to be re abused or bullies

I have worked with people of all ages who have been abused and do take Safeguarding very seriously, which is why I am raising awareness.

Put simply, anyone who has any kind of abuse in their background would be better off not attending any kind of organisation who would not listen, support or validate their feelings in the case of abuse.

I heard a snippet of this person speaking ( on the Radio 4 programme). The tone, the authority, the arrogance and superiority rang through. People are taken in by this sort of stuff.

Did you feel inferior?

Anniebach

Did you feel inferior?

Who would you be referring to Annie?

If it's me, then no, of course not. How could I possibly feel inferior to something I consider wrong?

Anniebach

Did you feel inferior?

Not really, I was in the car on my way to a class. I foudn it an interesting and rather chilling listen.

The clip featured him speaking in that rather odd " Church Voice". I can't recall what he was talking about.
Various people then contributed , still scared to come forward. He must have exerted great power.

It's a weird question to ask if someone felt inferior.

Why Annie asked that just because wrong doings in the CofE were flagged up, I cannot fathom

I have been involved with Safeguarding all my working life, so I am happy to champion the rights of the abused.

I find it very sad when those in power pick on those who they percieve to be powerless "because they can", meaning that in many cases the already abused are abused again and again but their actions are bourne of evil which does not belong in any church.

For that reason I would caution against someone abused going to the CofE for help.

Many of the dioceses have anti bullying policies, though not all - and those that do have them still bullying in the ranks, or staff and congregations.

Very often it's the church wardens that are bullies and even pychopaths. Quite often the Priest in Charge knows the wardens are toxic, but are scared of their own job security, so feels unable to challenge their behaviour towards the vulnerable.

Cadeby

I heard a snippet of this person speaking ( on the Radio 4 programme). The tone, the authority, the arrogance and superiority rang through. People are taken in by this sort of stuff.

Oh they so are. And I would say that the situations where that happens is getting worse.

I dont know exactly why.
People bow and kow tow to all sorts of people in authority.

I dont agree with breaking the law.
But I do wish so many more people would use a lot more discernment.

Scripture is an authority for some people, which is a shame, because Jesus reformed Scripture so as to place the individual as the ultimate value. Please see the parable of The Good Samaritan.