Gransnet forums


sceptics or deniers?

(45 Posts)
carboncareful Fri 21-Oct-11 14:59:58

Here is an article from today's Guardian that not only gives latest results but claims to address the doubts of sceptics. It also defines difference between genuine sceptics and outright deniers.

carboncareful Fri 21-Oct-11 15:00:44

Sorry, forgot to paste in

jinglej Fri 21-Oct-11 15:07:45

I thought it was accepted that global warming is happening. Just doubt as to whether we are causing it.

Good to see city hotspots are doing minimal damage.

I think its best to be on the safe side and keep our carbon footprints down.

carboncareful Fri 21-Oct-11 15:13:40

But thats the problem, its not accepted. Not accepted by most Americans and not accepted by some gransnetters!

bagitha Fri 21-Oct-11 20:26:10

jingle is right. It is accepted that global warming is happening but there is still doubt as to what is causing it. The Guardian 'report' is not a good one and misses a very important aspect of the study, namely that it says that "the human component of global warming may be overstated."

I would like to ask GNHQ to remove the word 'deniers' from the title of this thread. As carbon must know, people find this an offensive term because of its association (deliberate or accidental) with holocaust deniers. She should also know that scepticism in science is a good thing, always.

I will ask elsewhere too so they see the request.

CariGransnet (GNHQ) Fri 21-Oct-11 21:18:50

Bagitha - totally understand what you are saying regarding the term 'deniers' and its wider association but wanted to reassure you that it is also commonly used in an environmental context as well: just one example of many is this piece from the Guardian

JessM Sat 22-Oct-11 02:23:50

There are shades of opinion surely, from those who say "there is no rise in temperature and there is no harm being done to the environment by our consumption of carbon" to those who raise specific questions about the extent to which temperatures are rising or the extent to which our consumption of carbon is harmful to the environment.

bagitha Sat 22-Oct-11 07:17:39

I am aware that the phrase "climate change deniers" is in wide use. That does not mean it is not insulting. As I think I've said elsewhere, I have yet to meet anyone who denies that climate change happens. The debate (when one side stops calling the other side names) is about what causes climate change. On the one hand there are people who think the planet is doomed by human activity and on the other there are people who are studying the effects of all kind of things (as yet poorly understood) that affect global climate and who say, just a minute, what about this, and this, and this, and this....?

I personally am not insulted by any names people wish to call me, but I know some people are insulted by the implications in the phrase "climate denier." The fact that mainstream journalists use the phrase does not make it OK, just as the fact that "nigger" was at one time in mainstream use did not make that OK either.

bagitha Sat 22-Oct-11 07:38:17

On second (or third!) thoughts, though, it was this name-calling that set me off investigating the truth behind the global warming panic. I reckoned that anyone who had to resort to name-calling had lost the scientific argument. And so it proved.

Maybe you should just leave the surely intended insult (and George Monbiot intends it too, don't kid yourself) in place. You never know, it might wake up a few more people to reality.

bagitha Sat 22-Oct-11 07:39:57

It took a long time before "proper" people accepted that nigger was an offensive word too.

Ariadne Sat 22-Oct-11 07:49:57

It's a question, again, of semantics. Just as I objected in another post to the connotations of the words "twee" and "mumsy", so Bagitha is questioning the connotations of this word. "To deny", to me, suggests that it is an absolute truth that is being denied. I am discussing just the word here, by the way!

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 09:09:13

I am trying SO HARD not to mention tights.

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 09:09:27


jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 09:11:03

Its got to be the elephant in the room though.

Ariadne Sat 22-Oct-11 10:19:53

???? Lost it here, I'm afraid!

Elegran Sat 22-Oct-11 10:45:20

Why does your elephant have tights jingly ? Is it so that it will not be ignored ? Are they coloured ones? Stripy?

em Sat 22-Oct-11 11:05:38

oooh! Ariadne you walked right into that one! A classic Jingly provocation!!

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 11:12:25

Yes. Its wears 40 denier ones, to keep warm. grin

Annobel Sat 22-Oct-11 11:33:13

bags, I note that the article makes the distinction between climate change 'deniers' and climate change 'sceptics'. One scientist refers also to 'contrarians'. Would you prefer to be described as a sceptic or a contrarian? hmm

Elegran Sat 22-Oct-11 12:23:21

Get the grans on the knitting thread busy, jingly that would use up a few odds and ends. Don't forget a fifth one for his trunk.

Annobel Sat 22-Oct-11 12:54:42

Am now wondering if jinglej is, in fact, the 'elephant in the room'. Metaphorically of course - not casting aspersions on your shape, J.

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 12:58:20

They should spell it 'deny-ers'.

Would make more sense. And distinguishable from the hosiery kind.

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 12:58:59

annobel - shock angry

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 12:59:31

wink wink he he he! That got you worried! grin

jinglej Sat 22-Oct-11 13:01:02

Oh get me off of here. I got spare beds to do and a chocolate cake to make. shock