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Science/nature/environment

Alternatives to the Death Sentence?

(122 Posts)
HollyDaze Thu 21-Aug-14 19:49:56

After reading amy092's thread about the death sentence and possible alternatives to it, it made me think about what could, should or would be done. What do you feel would be a suitable alternative? Or do you feel that the death sentence should be reintroduced?

What about cryonics as a solution for long-term prisoners who have no hope of release as they are too much of a danger to the public? At least that way, if science discovers a way to correct their pathological behaviour traits, they would have the chance to resume life. Ditto with those wrongly accused and imprisoned. Would it work out cheaper in the long run to do this?

Elegran Fri 22-Aug-14 14:12:18

I've thought that too, Gagagran Surely they could be doing something which at least earns enough to pay for the cost of their "board and lodging" That much could be deducted and used to offset the cost of the prison service, and any extra banked for them toward their eventual release, with a small amount issued weekly as "pocket money".

The knowledge that working was making money that they would eventually get to spend would give them a goal, and be good practice for those without a habit of regular work and saving.

janeainsworth Fri 22-Aug-14 14:24:23

Elegran there may well have been dafter threads, but I can't think of any more distasteful.
Perhaps if you want a serious discussion about the care and rehabilitation of offenders it might be better to start a different thread.

janeainsworth Fri 22-Aug-14 14:27:22

Elegran there may well have been dafter threads, but I can't think of any more distasteful.
Perhaps if you want a serious discussion about the care and rehabilitation of offenders it might be better to start a different thread.

Gagagran Fri 22-Aug-14 14:53:17

This was a development away from the distasteful bit, jane in trying to think what could be done. The post is "Alternatives to the Death Sentence" after all so it is just an extension of the discussion.

HollyDaze Fri 22-Aug-14 15:08:09

Are there any solutions as imaginative as cryogenics but perhaps more workable?

That is exactly what I asked in the first post but hey, don't let that get in the way of offering nothing more than ridicule eh ...

Do none of you have imagination? Do none of you wonder 'what if ...?' 'could this work ...?' 'what about ...?' - do you think that people just wake up with a ready formed idea or do you think that the experts actually throw ideas around first?

Was that meant as a silly joke?

Can't believe this is being given forum space.

Where would GN be without your informative and insightful input to discussions hmm

With you jingl

So why are you bothering to reply then? There are lot of threads on here that I think are absolute drivel so I stay off them - I can never understand why others don't do the same on threads they have no interest in.

I am interested in scientific procedures so, naturally, I see if anyone else is; clearly not though.

whenim64 Fri 22-Aug-14 15:17:56

I supervised quite a few lifers as a probation officer, some inside and some out on life licence. They don't sit languishing in a cell - they have work, study, group and individual therapy, skills training and so on. They move through the prison system according to a life sentence plan which is reviewed annually, internally, and periodically by the lifer board (like a parole board).

The few who have no hope of release tend to be in special hospitals like Broadmoor, with a direction from the Secretary of State that they are too dangerous to be released - that is reviewed periodically via tribunals, even with lifers like Peter Sutcliffe, who will never be released, but a tribunal could determine whether they could be returned to the prison system.

Most lifers aren't sick so don't need a cure - they need to be kept in prison for the length of time stipulated by the judge, to learn how to avoid re-offending, regulate their own behaviour and serve a sentence as punishment. It's a system that generally works effectively and lifers can be recalled back to prison if they step out of line once released. It is several years, if at all, before the supervision element of a life licence is lifted, but the licence itself is till the end of their natural life.

The only one I recalled to prison started drinking and lost his job, so he went back inside for a few months until he got his act together again. There's a mistaken assumption that people who commit murder will always be a danger to the public, which is not the case. Also, most testosterone-fuelled young criminals do grow up and learn how to keep out of trouble, or to avoid committing serious offences agai.

To experiment on prisoners is barbaric - we condemn them for their criminal acts, so it's hypocritical to subject them to such treatment against their will.

Why not look at some prison regimes online and find out what they actually do with lifers?

HollyDaze Fri 22-Aug-14 15:19:36

if you can call it a discussion when no-one except Hollydaze seems to think there is mileage in the idea.

Only me? Apparently not:

www.alcor.org/Library/html/WillCryonicsWork.html

science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/cryonics3.htm

They used to accuse anyone delving inside the human body, for anatomical purposes, of heresy and thought they'd be damning their soul for all eternity and most likely burnt at the stake - and yet here we are with invasive surgery saving lives every year ... funny how ideas, thoughts, knowledge and abilities change over time isn't it.

whenim64 Fri 22-Aug-14 15:21:07

A typical lifer regime in Gartree prison:

www.insidetime.co.uk/info-regimes2.asp?nameofprison=HMP_GARTREE

janeainsworth Fri 22-Aug-14 15:22:27

Hollydaze Civilised countries do not carry out scientific experiments on people who have been rightly, or wrongly, deprived of their liberty.
That's what the Nazis did.

ffinnochio Fri 22-Aug-14 15:24:02

As always, clear and informative info. when

Gagagran Fri 22-Aug-14 15:37:02

That's really interesting when thank you. I do note however, looking at the times the cells are open, that Frid/Sat/Sund they are locked up for 16 hours 15 mins and the rest of the week for 14 hours 30 minutes each day. Surely they could be doing something productive in this time? I understand about all the courses etc. that they can do but I am still of the view that they should be doing more in the way of recompense.

HollyDaze Fri 22-Aug-14 15:38:40

whenim64

What about cryonics as a solution for long-term prisoners who have no hope of release as they are too much of a danger to the public

Did you miss that bit in the OP?

It's a system that generally works effectively

Most lifers aren't sick so don't need a cure

'For those sentenced to less than 12 months, 58.5 per cent had reoffended within 12 months of their release up to September 2011 – this is 1.2 percentage points up on the previous year.'

'Less than one quarter of offences are committed by offenders with no previous criminal offences. It has been estimated that the financial cost alone to society of reoffending is around £11bn and the human cost, of course, is incalculable.'

'Key Fact: Half of ex-prisoners reoffend within a year of release'

'Up to 90% of prisoners have some form of mental health problem and while most have common conditions, about one in ten has a more severe condition such as psychosis, and about two thirds have a personality disorder'

criminaljusticealliance.org/BriefingforPCCs.pdf

While the number of people entering the criminal justice system is falling a hardcore group continue to reoffend at an alarming rate, latest figures show.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/reoffending-is-up-while-fewer-people-enter-the-criminal-justice-system

Doesn't seem to be working that well to me.

HollyDaze Fri 22-Aug-14 15:39:53

janeainsworth

Direct me to the post where I suggested experimenting on prisoners and I will request that it be removed. I don't mind waiting while you look for it ...

whenim64 Fri 22-Aug-14 15:45:38

Hollydaze you seem to be combing stats on short term sentenced prisoners with lifers. I was just talking about lifers in my post.

I did address your issue - I said near the end of my post that experimenting on prisoners is barbaric etc etc.

HollyDaze Fri 22-Aug-14 15:55:56

whenim64

The re-offending rates for long-term offenders is not easy to find - this was the closest and I didn't include it initially as it isn't particularly reassuring about the whole system:

www.bbc.com/news/uk-12130164

However, the information I did give shows that your facts are not altogether accurate with regard to It's a system that generally works effectively and Most lifers aren't sick so don't need a cure.

I did address your issue - I said near the end of my post that experimenting on prisoners is barbaric etc etc.

See my post to jane - if you can show me where I said I recommend experimenting on prisoners, I will volunteer to be the first in line for the experiment.

janeainsworth Fri 22-Aug-14 16:15:38

You suggested experimenting on prisoners in your OP. Hollydaze, when you put forward the idea of cryonics as a solution fro longterm prisoners.

Sorry when crossed posts.

Nelliemoser Fri 22-Aug-14 16:32:47

HollyDaze I don't think its a funny subject either! So why did you start it?
with this title? IMO it's just in rather bad taste all round!

I find some of your suggestions bizarre!

As you challenged jingle about her lack of knowledge on the subject, are you about to enlighten us on your knowledge of the viability of such a scheme and how it might work?

Jingle I am with you as well.

The problem is the title "Alternatives to the Death Sentence?" We have not had death sentences in the UK since 1965. It is inhumane.

Now how about a proposition more like..

"How do we most humanely deal with prisoners facing a life sentence for serious crimes who are a possible danger to society."

Soutra Fri 22-Aug-14 16:56:03

OP just needs to take more tonic with it IMHO
Hi jingl been away or "just"busy?

Penstemmon Fri 22-Aug-14 17:14:03

Why do we need an alternative to something that does not even exist in this country?

As thatbags said we have life sentences already. holly did you mean an alternative to life sentence but not death!? confused

Nonu Fri 22-Aug-14 17:30:37

Let HOLLY have her say, I say !
smile

Ana Fri 22-Aug-14 17:36:11

The OP made it perfectly clear that she started this thread after reading amy092's request for respondents to a questionnaire about the death sentence and its effectiveness or not as a deterrent measure.

www.gransnet.com/forums/ask_a_gran/1209715-Capital-Punishment-Questionnaire

(if you haven't seen it)

Penstemmon Fri 22-Aug-14 18:24:11

Nonu she is having her say! And so is everyone else who wants to! isn't that how it works?? wink

grumppa Fri 22-Aug-14 19:09:02

Assuming cryogenics was adopted as a sort of way back from capital punishment, how long would be allowed for new evidence to be unearthed? Five years, ten, twenty, the dead person's actuarially determined life expectancy? The only precedent I can think of is three days, which doesn't seem long enough, somehow.

And how about the dead person's other half? Can they go straight off and get a new partner? Will a new marriage be declared void if the first spouse pops back?

I am also intrigued by the implications for life insurance and pension providers...

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 22-Aug-14 19:22:09

OMG!!!

What if there was a power cut?! shock

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 22-Aug-14 19:22:30

I suppose if they kept the doors shut...