Why Engineers?

There were several countries, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, and yes,*Eloethan*, I think you are right, Iran. In these countries the technically qualified generally are in employment so less likely to become jihadist.

The report did also make the point that in the USA, although the majority of followers of extreme right wing libertarian millenarian groups tended to be the poor and dispossessed, there had been examples where the begetter and leader of these groups was an engineer, but it seemed to be talking only of one or two individual in a few groups, which shows the tendency for some engineers to look for simple answers to difficult problems in all cultures It is only in Islamic cultures does this reach a level where engineers as a whole are over represented in what are terrorist groups with a large number of adherents and followers.

Disadvantaged youth has always been attracted to violent and society challenging movements, whether it is fascism or terrorism. The gang culture among young men of Afro-Caribbean origin is a response to a poor education system and racism that makes it more difficult for them than their contemporaries to get work. In a wider context anti-immigration movements are motivated about fears of economic destabilisation driving wages down and unemployment up.

As I said economic growth and an open and stable political system in these countries is the best defence against terrorism.

"As I said economic growth and an open and stable political system in these countries is the best defence against terrorism."

So right, Flickety!

I often think that the troubles in Ireland became a lot less, in the years when their economy became a lot better.

I'm not sure but wasn't it the other way round soontobe?

For anyone who isn't familiar with what an engineer does, there are some similarities with a doctor: they analyse a problem, form a hypothesis, devise a means of testing the hypothesis, and then devise a solution and test that. Then if the solution doesn't work, the process repeats. They also have to innovate and be creative, finding new solutions to problems. The conspicuous differences are that doctors don't have to design a human in the first place, the design of humans never changes, and engineers can't get away with blaming the patient.

I think this last point is significant, engineers are less prone to denial because they know that they can't get away with it. To quote Nobel Laureate Richard Feynman at the shuttle enquiry:

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."

So many of the population are given to what's-bad-is-false arguments from consequence: the seals must be OK, because cancelling the launch is politically embarrassing.

Engineers are realistic not idealistic, I know that if the radios I design don't work when they start rolling off the production line there's very limited scope for denial, this contrasts with the non "black and white" nature of the issues in many other walks of life. Simple issues can sometimes be made complicated than they are by denial (politician's insistence that economic growth is sustainable, for example).

I think this is at the root of much of what makes people so ambivalent toward science, it has a nasty habit of disproving peoples pet prejudices, but science is about accepting the evidence irrespective of whether it suits (and about changing your mind when the evidence warrants it).

The evolution of denial is quite interesting.

I don't know where flicketyb's husband works, but my experience of the other engineers in our lab was much more like pompa's.

It's interesting to note that Gambetta's paper doesn't appear to have been peer reviewed or accepted for publication, nor does it appear on his list of publications on his web page.

Up until a few years ago, I had no idea that people lie to themselves.

I cant see the point of that.

DH works/worked in the offshore energy industry. I would point out, that in the days of job adverts appearing in newspapers the DT was the main publication of choice for companies advertising for engineers. DH always bought it when he was wanting to move on.

They don't know they are lying to themselves. If they did they would know they were doing it, and then it would be impossible to believe it. Usually it is because they don't want to accept the truth, so they can't see it. There are none so blind as those who won't see.

You may think you never lie to yourself, but you probably do, or have done at some point. Not a big lie, perhaps.

Unless you are a product of a virtual reality application, and don't have imagination built in to lie with. (Or Mr Spock in Star Trek?)

Oh we do, we do lie to ourselves. The problem is to recognise it and deal with it. Nothing is more difficult than being honest about oneself to oneself.

I have had a think. Still dont think that I do.

You're obviously very good at it then, soontobe!

!

Crun, very well put.

" they analyse a problem, form a hypothesis, devise a means of testing the hypothesis, and then devise a solution and test that. Then if the solution doesn't work, the process repeats. They also have to innovate and be creative, finding new solutions to problems"

That is exactly how I see an engineer's role. It is also the way I tackle most of lifes problems.

Later in my career I moved into IT, designing manufacturing software systems, whilst I no longer got my hands dirty, this was as much engineering as I had ever done.

"It is also the way I tackle most of lifes problems."

Here's an example: A few years ago I noticed a Xanthelasma in the mirror when I was shaving, so I thought it wold be a good idea to cut the amount of fat in my diet. At this point most people would immediately pounce on the usual suspects: junk food etc. and cut down on those, but to me that's irrational, and an example of what I meant by fixing the problem before you know what it is.

What I did was sit down with a wad of till receipts, and tot up what I was eating, and how much fat it contained. That was interesting, the biggest sources of fat turned out to be milk, marge, and cheese. I found that by switching to skimmed milk, low fat marge, and cutting out cheese I could get twice the reduction in fat that I would have achieved if I had gone through removing all the "junk" foodstuffs. Not only that, but it was more convenient because it didn't involve any great upheaval in my eating habits.

Within a year the Xanthelasma had gone.