Environmental concerns and the move towards Heat Pumps

Oh my giddy aunt.
Climate change is not a belief. You cannot generalise about cherry
pick a few scientists who are like dear Trump deniers but the whole of the rest of the scientific and research community sees it as a fact.

You cannot generalise about heat pumps, the technology is improving all the time and new air source pumps are better, quieter and smaller than they were. I went to a heat pump party ! At a three bed terrace house, pump tucked against the rear wall, about the same noise or less than our gas boiler. Only two radiators had to be enlarged and most of the pipe work remained the same. The tanks fitted in the airing cupboard. The total cost was £1,700 including all the making good, after a hefty government grant. The electricity used is economical.
We are considering it for our house but suspect our small detached house may be insufficiently insulated, but I await the survey with interest.
Whether they work will depend on the house and the technology. Octopus are great for an initial opinion. And if your house is of the size that fits one of the ones they typically supply you benefit from the bulk ordering and the price is kept down.

my hubby works for a heat pump company and we were mega keen to get one when we moved into our 1960's bungalow BUT due to our antiquated heating system this was not possible, and also the lack of insulation would be pointless, so although they are promoting it very few houses can actually support this without huge outlay to update everything else in the house to make them efficient

I didn’t cherry pick a few scientists, and I don’t think the whole of the rest of the scientific and research community see it as a fact. I don’t have figures but I would imagine there are many amongst them who are skeptics as just talking to people generally I have found a 60/40 split in opinion.

Casdon, thanks for posting about your all-electric system.
With all the investment going into creating carbon neutral electricity, we are told that it will become cheaper eventually.
Perhaps air source heat pumps are an intermediate technology which will become obsolete.

From what I have read of heat pumps I wouldn't currently go for them - few of our houses are up to spec when it comes to insulation and plumbing, so the outlay would be quite a lot. I read somewhere recently that someone had two heat pumps installed, purely to cover a failure because support engineers can be few and far between in some places.

We installed solar panels a few years ago (again, not an option for every house) and I'm watching the domestic wind turbines and solar fences with a lot of interest. The Japanese have developed a small domestic wind turbine for fitting anywhere around the house or garden that doesn't make a noise and is (apparently) non intrusive. Also the development of the really thin solar panels that can be fitted on walls instead of roofs. Non of this is readily available at the moment, and probably too expensive for most of us, but in a year or two we'll see.

Air source heat pumps operate on electricity Romola! We have one and are all-electric.

If electicity was cheaper we could just replace our gas boilers with electric boilers. Electric boilers are very simple, cheaper to buy and do not require any changes to existing heating systems.

The town where I live used to be jam-packed with some of the best scientists in the country. The first wind turbine I ever saw wasin the back garden of a house near me. Possibly designed, built and installed by the residents. It was there for a few years but had to be removed when the Council "officially" noticed it (probaably a complaint from someone). I totally believe there is Climate change. It has changed a lot just over the last 30 of my 77 years. But the fact remains, although this country might not be as cold as Canada, it is still too cold to have no heating!

That's my standpoint. I'll go back to practicalities seperately.

Back to practicalities. For an air pump to be sufficient, yuo need a well-insulated house. I was brought up in a rather nice, 3-bed new build council semi with a big garden at the back and a smaller patch at the front. Lovely, but chilly with it's livingroom coal fire, nothing in the dining room and a coke boiler in the kitchen which heated the water in the winter. My bedroom was unheated. We used a very unsafe parafin heater in the bathroom. Chilblains at night, frost patterns on the inside of the living room windows in the morning. Poor insulation. Those houses still in Social use have been having insulating cladding added externally, installed by the Housing Association. They will have had their attics insulated as well. But the windows are 25 years old. Not the best, although still better than the single glazing and draughty wooden surrounds they were built with. Plenty of room for an air pump, probably room for larger radiators and tanks. But I read a few days ago that many houses around the country with the cladding installed about 3 years ago are now smothered in mold internally and the cladding must be redone. Any small gap lets water in and traps it.

My 1970s Wimpey's no-fines "solid" wall property has an extra radiator in the livingroom, insulation in the attic, top quality double glazing and leak free external doors (paid for by me, after I bought it). The walls should have been 12" thick to insulate them, but Council budgets meant that they were built only 8" thick. My research indicates that there is NO WAY the insulation of the walls can be safely improved. There were a lot of these houses built. My elder daughter and SIL own a 3 bed version and have problems keeping it warm even with a new boiler and plenty of money to pay the bills. Their garden situation is even worse than mine. They have the "Patio door" version at the back and an even smaller, North facing garden. These houses, both the no-fines terraces and the older, breeze block semis are everywhere in the country, in their hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions.

I can afford my current bills. OAP and widow's work pension. I heat the livingroom. The rest gets no heat except the bathroom for a bath when I need one and in the very coldest weather the bedroom for a while before bed. I have hot water 2 days a week and a gas cooker. I pay £70-£80p.m. at present, dual fuel. A heat pump is designed to run continuously day and night, summer and winter, with electric "panels" kicking in if the 35C flow temp can't be reached otherwise. Heat in winter, AC in Summer. How the hell would I pay for that?

When my mother was in her sheltered housing flat she had electric plug in radiators which could be set with a timer like central heating. Her flat was always warm and her bills were not extortionate.

I bet she wan't also paying of a bill of thousands for installation.
Your Mum was lucky to get a sheltered housing flat, whatever the heating. They are like hen's teeth around here, especially for people not already in Housing Association accomodation.

A friend of mine waited several years for his tiny flat. Unfortunately it is upstairs and he has severe mobility problems but it has the advantage that he rarely has to use his heating as the flat downstairs keeps his warm - accidental underfloor heating.

The heat pump is actually a very inefficient way to heat your radiators. Very expensive way to heat.
My dh has researched into it. There are other options which are more economical. Consider underfloor insulation (we have minimum 150 cm going up to 200 cm). Underfloor heating will keep your home warm and cosy. You can have electric or water using your existing boiler. Electric is a little more expensive but once it comes to temperature it is economical. Thermostats in each room enable you to control where and when you heat.
We have insulation on the inside of our walls which also helps keep heat in. Local builders etc have taken a lot of interest in the way we have improved our home. One has even started to insulate his own home to higher spec. Good luck with your research

I doubt gas will be switched off in my lifetime. If I live another 25 years I still would not recover a heat pump plus insulation plus new radiators, etc., cost.

I turned down buying a new build house, the heat pump was located below the main bedroom window. Don`t let the wool be pulled over your eyes, they are noisy and irritating. I would never have a heat pump.

I have gas ch and underfloor heating downstairs in my new build detached, if my quiet efficient boiler ever breaks down I would get a new one but cannot see that being needed for many years. If gas is phased out then it would I would get an electric boiler as my house is very well insulated

Btw return on solar panels will take between 11 and 15 years if they are wholly south facing

We are house moving and have been looking at a house with a defunct boiler. If we bought the house we would eplace it with - another gas boiler.

The house was built in the 1930s and, at the moment, installing a heat pump is just too expensive and problematic. I would rather wait a few more years until the technology, which has been around for a long time, has become better and more efficient.

Of course, if the government took all the environmental taxes off electricity and put them on gas instead, that would change the economics and would make replacing a gas boiler with an electric one, quick simple and much, much cheaper or even individual room heaters linked and controlled centrally. Currently either of these quick and simple alternatives are counted out because electricity is so expensive.

Interestingly too, M0nica, if you are having new utilities installed, gas and water are deemed to be essential so the cost of installation is subsidised by the Government. Electricity is not so the cost of anything to do with installation is sky high. I was astonished.

My husband was in hundreds of houses before his stroke who had ground source heat pumps and never met a family who were totally happy with them.

My friend moved into her brand new house last Christmas. It has this type of heating as all new houses have to. It is a large 5 bed house over 3 storeys and has everything eco so it SHOULD work perfectly but it doesn’t. A local builder built it to her spec. She says if she could she would rip it out and have oil again because it is never warm enough.

A very expensive system that doesn’t keep the house warm enough.

Do you mean air source heat pumps? You need a fair amount of land for a ground source one. We have an air source pump and are all electric. The house is very well insulated and always warm. However our house is part single storey, part two. I suspect the spec for the heating in your friend’s house wasn’t properly calculated.

I live in a draughty Edwardian mid-terrace with a tiny garden and currently have a very efficient combi boiler.
When it comes to the end of its life (maybe in 5 years,) I’ll be replacing it with another combi because a heat pump just isn’t an option in my type of property.
Hopefully that’ll see me out but if I was younger, I’d be concerned. The government doesn’t seem to be doing much to reassure people in small old houses with even smaller gardens how they’re going to be able to heat their homes without a heat pump.

Air source heat pumps don’t take up much space but they are very ugly. Ours is well screened from view with shrubs. However they can’t simply be bolted on to any old radiators and the house needs to be very well insulated in order to properly benefit.

What would happen with flats. Would they have to have them in windows, like air conditioning units?. What affect would 10 or 20 of them in close proximity have on air temperature, not to mention combined noise.

Barleyfields

We have a heat pump which was installed, with underfloor heating, when the house was built. We are pleased with it. However, you can’t just stick one on an outside wall of just any property and connect it to an existing radiator system. Larger pipes and radiators may well be needed and that means a huge amount of upheaval. And of course the National Grid has to be able to cope with the extra demand.

Not only that, but I have no idea where heat pumps would be placed on some properties, for instance small terraced houses with just a back yard. They might not be permitted at all on some listed buildings.

The government isn’t remotely interested in whether people can afford to have a heat pump installed and pay for all the consequent making good, even with a grant. Milliband is just on a headlong rush to achieve net zero, come what may. It’s a disaster, just like the penalties imposed on car manufacturers if they don’t produce a given number of EVs each year, and having to stop selling new petrol and diesel cars in 2030. I despair.

Barleyfields 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I agree with all you say on this subject, we’re a small Victorian terraced house with a yard.Milliband needs to be stopped asap.

If the government were serious about heat pumps they would increase the grant, pressure manufacturers to reduce prices, increase training for installers, commission work on how to make them work in older properties, exempt listed homes and those in conservation areas from planning controls relevant to heating, reduce the cost of electricity for heat pumps and publish independent data on their efficiency. At age 78 there I no way I can amortise the capital cost in my lifetime.

Friends of ours had a heat pump and solar panels fitted when they moved last year (they had a grant), they live in a property of a similar size to us , when I asked recently how much their energy bill was over the winter, the amount she said was not a lot less that what I pay for Gas & Electric. Although she did say she sells energy back to the national grid. Not sure if it is worth the extra outlay. If she said she is paying 50% less but it was more like 5%.

We had a couple of companies in to give us quotes for solar panels and a heat pump…….the cost was eye watering!

Our roof is in great condition having only been replaced three years ago but one of the companies decided it was a great idea to position the solar panels on the north facing aspect which was not acceptable and we told them so. He said the south facing aspect was damaged - it wasn’t! When we decided to not proceed with it one of the reps was very very hostile towards us and said we needed to pay for the quote- I cut the call and we never heard from him again.
Do your research and be mindful of the cowboys if you are serious about solar panels etc