That burkini!

I don't have a problem with a woman (or man) wishing to cover their body in public, but they must be recognisable. I'm sure that a man in a similar garment to a burka would soon be arrested. How long could I wear this for ?

This is what I wear under my crash helmet in winter.

I remember women only swimming sessions too along with women only train carriages!

I agree that the complete covering of a face, except for eyes, is a potential security issue.

pompa in answer to your question: it depends on the place and the weather! Raises the odds of arrest if it is a heatwave and you are in a bank/outside a jewellery store!

It suits you pompa! More seriously, we did lots of things in the past and have moved on from them. Good heavens women even have the vote! We cannot countenance a slide back to the way things were. Too many good women suffered to gain us the freedoms we have now. The problem with these 'burkinis' is that women who wear them will never do other than stand out as odd in our pools. They will be a barrier to integration just as the wearing of burkas is. Full stop.

But denying women who wish to be covered up when swimming that opportunity isn't doing anything for 'integration', is it? They just won't venture into public swimming pools. Full stop!

But jane if they allow women to go swimming in public places where they otherwise wouldn't feel able to, surely that's promoting integration?

Oddness is in the eye of the beholder. Broadminds and accepting hearts can minimise difference...look more for similarities... a woman, a swimmer, a human being!

I've been to swimming sessions with lots of Muslim women who wear ordinary swimsuits like us -little and large. No one looked twice at them. If they'd turned up in a burkini they'd be stared at at the very least. Women from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have lived and integrated here for decades. This burka/burkini business is a relatively new thing. My Muslim friend is furious about it and refuses to talk to "these women who cover themselves up. What's so special about them?" She asked once. I couldn't answer her.

Perhaps she should talk to them, so they could tell her why they want to cover themselves up. I'm pretty sure it's not because they feel they're 'special'...

Broad minds and accepting hearts should work both ways surely

I suspect my Muslim friends would, like my non-Muslim friends, have a variety of opinions. My view is that if something makes activities accessible to someone then it can't all be bad!

I know some friends, who are Muslims, have reacted to the wave of Islamaphobia by being more obviously Muslim in their dress..as a sort of defiance to the hate they feel whereas another couple I know have 'westernised' further ( e.g. cut hair in a more Western style) to try to blend in to avoid the hate they worry will be targetted at them. Sad that people have to modify their lives in response to hate and ignorance.

It was jane10 who implied she would find women in an coverall cossie "odd" my reply was to her.

But of course it applies in all circumstances and no society /group is perfect or without their bigots/haters.

A friend who married an Iranian once told me it is very tricky swimming in a headscarf!

Sigh. My concern, as previously stated, is the potential for the creeping normalisation of the need for women to cover themselves up (again). Its not about swimming or accepting others etc etc etc. Its the bigger nastier picture. Already we've heard of schoolgirls in Germany being told to wear more modest uniforms due to the proximity of the large groups of Muslim men. Why should it be the girls that change? Why can't it be the attitudes of the men behind this? This is 2016.

What have these Muslim men in Germany done to force school girls into more modest uniforms ?

I didn't realise kids wore uniforms in Germany. I have said ,more than once, that all women need to be free to wear /do what they choose without pressure from men/society. I am suggesting that the so-called burkini is in fact an enabler not a blocker for some women.

I am curious about the change in uniform because of Muslim men, do these men look, do they whistle, do they grab bottoms,? What have they done to cause more modest uniforms ?

Sigh again. We're never going to agree on this. I see big picture you see the smaller individual one. I'd refer you back to earlier posts on this forum presenting the feminist perspective. I don't see any point in reiterating how unpleasant a prospect the creeping normalisation of this attitude to women's bodies is. Goodbye.

So I assume German men never ogle, whistle etc? . just Muslim men ?

Jane10 your big picture and mine are just very different I think!

It is already 'normal' for many Muslim women to wear coverup style clothing and therefore to avoid situations that require more exposure, e.g. swimming. By waering a 'burkini' I am suggesting it could , for some women, ' normalise' swimming in a public pool. I am certainly not suggesting it should be required dress for other women who are already comfortable in a swimsuit. That would be nonsense and I am sure this was not the intention..just M&S trying to increase its sales to Muslim women.

Is it not wrong to assume all Muslim women who wear a burka do so under orders of men?

I think most women who wear a burkha probably do so because of cultural /male pressure. However Hijabs are often actively chosen by women. I know several Muslim women who never wore a headscarf until there was the backlash of anti-Islam following terrorist atrocities. They then chose to stand up and out for their faith that they felt was being maligned by both terrorists and much of the media.

Yes it's possible they do but we cannot say they all do, I am sure some wear these clothes because they wish to and I can understand those who choose to defend their faith in this way, I would

Just to point out...it has nothing to do with 'faith' it is entirely a culture matter.
Muslim women in some countries are required ( by the culture of that country) to dress in certain ways.Some will only wear a headscarf , other places different clothing.The only thing they have in common is being a Muslim.The full burka made a comeback thanks to the Taliban.

I work as a volunteer in a school where pretty much all the intake is Muslim. Most of the girls wear a scarf, but there are a few who don't. I'm dying to ask why, but don't feel that I can. I'm not sure why: yet if one of the girls were to ask me why I wear a particular watch, a certain colour of lipstick or a style of earrings, I would feel obliged to reply.

Why do I feel uncomfortable about asking the question.

In the same way the wearing of a crucifix or cross is not required by the religion but is a symbol of a person's faith? We would not want to ban that.

Wearing of headscarves is also cultural..and for that reason maybe the Western view of trying to make it dificult for women to do so is insensitive? If you have worn a type of clothing all your life is it helpful to suddenly have to change? I do not think Western women in the Gulf states change their style of dress.