That burkini!

I completely agree with Synonomous's views. Alas for M&S, another unwearable ugly garment to join their collection.

In my village there is one Muslim family, the very young wife/mother usually just wears a hijab, the day after the Brussels atrocity she has taken to wearing the full body and facial cover up garb.

OK, but surely M&S have seen a gap in the market?
People do holiday in strict Arab countries, Nigella was photographed in a Burkini and she's about as far from Muslim as you can get, and we have a growing population of Muslim women, who, like it or not, wish to observe traditional practices.
I say "like it or not" because it is not in a shop's remit to lay down "moral" standards is it?
I would rather a girl or young woman was able to enjoy the seaside/beach in a Burkini than obliged to forgo the pleasure because of her religion, regardless of how outdated or repressive we find it.
It's not in the same league as FGM .

Having spent a lot of time in India in the past, I always thought that the sight of an Indian lady going into the sea in a sari and the flimsy fabric getting thoroughly wet and clingy, was far sexier than a wet Tshirt!!

Lilyflower i completely agree with you -our rights as women are too desperately hard won to give any countenance to any erosion whatsoever of those rights. Is the'burkini' a fashion choice or a hateful symbol of repression? Is 'modestwear' a style statement or something deeper and much more malign towards women than something as frivolous as fashion? As a modest woman myself I really see no need cover from head to toe ..as long as what I wear doesn't frighten small children and animals that seems to be a perfectly respectable way of going about my business

@Kas1950: Do you think that woman is expressing solidarity with the terrorists?

Lily flower is right. I worry for my granddaughters generation. It is creeping in and m&s should be ashamed of themselves. I shop at m&s but wonder if I should think of going elsewhere.

Apologies Jane10 also meant to post respect to you for your statement about choice

Kaz1950 that is slightly worrying.

kaz Is anybody friendly with your young Muslim lady? I mean she may have retreated because of fear of reprisal, it may not mean solidarity. But worrying if it is.

We saw several young mums wearing burkinis last year while we were on holiday in Jordan. They looked hot (but we all did - it was 35degrees) and far sexier than some of the young women in skimpy bikinis who were all boobs and buttocks. If this form of dress is supposed not to "incite" the lustful urges of men, I'd say they failed. But that was Jordan, an Arab country. This is the UK.
Presumably M&S will only stock these in shops with a large Muslim community, otherwise they are not commercially viable, and they are available easily online. What's the difference between this and large areas of Leicester having Indian shops selling saris? Is it simply because M&S is seen as a British icon?
Having said all that I'm conscious that I sound as if I have mixed feelings about it. I do. On the one hand I detest the idea of women being forced to cover up in response to some male diktat and on the other people should be allowed to wear what they want. On balance I think I'll stick with the "when in Rome" philosophy.

FGS, if a burkini enables a Muslim woman to take advantage of swimming facilities, why should we object?

Read the reasons. They've already been posted.

Well done Lilyflower I agree with you 100%.

Lilyflower thank you for such an excellent post.

Kas1950 Concerning but not surprising.

We all need to wake up and see what is going on around us and be aware of the stupidity of pc taking precedence over common sense. Whether we like it or not there is a war going on which is rapidly intensifying. It starts with the small things and once these are accepted the agenda moves on. Naturally enough there are always people who are not satisfied with the pace of 'softly, softly' and resort to violence. Once violence is seen to be normal the pace of that escalates so that ordinary people are disabled from going about their normal lives without fear.
Meanwhile the politicians feed the 'sheeple' with bread and circuses and continue to draw their big fat salaries for ..... what?!

They will stock them in central London where a huge chunk of their business is wealthy Arab tourists. Nothing to do with religion (the original Marks was after all, a Polish Jew) . Everything about who shops in their most lucrative outlets.

Jess yes, M&S are all about the money. They are in business. They ought to be wise to care about public opinion.

If the rest of it is not about religion why are the women wearing these things and why are all these other things happening right round the world?

I am old enough to remember 1956, when a French engineer introduced his newly designed Bikini. Talk about shock horror.
The newspapers were full of comments about how this demeaning garment harmed the dignity of women.
At eighteen, I would have been much too modest to show so much flesh; and away my my mother would never have allowed me to go out in public in one.
But now no one, even great Grans, would be shocked.
In my lifetime women have gained the right to show or hide whatever they wish. Let's leave it to them to decide.

In my lifetime women have gained the right to show or hide whatever they wish. Let's leave it to them to decide.

Leonora if it were only so simple.

Of course M&S have profitability at the top of their priority list! You make it sound reprehensible synonymous but they are indeed a business and how "public opinion" if such there is, comes into it it beyond me. Nobody is suggesting they are telling Western girls to cover up (but goodness, perhaps somebody should) but presumably market research among the buyers and suppliers of "modest"(I use the term in its technical sense) has led them to believe there will be a market.
I don't see it as you do -*Jane10*, as an insidious spread of Middle Eastern attitudes, just pragmatic marketing. There may even be a burgeoning market among sufferers from Lupus or Photosensitivity among our indigent population.

Alea You have read something into that which was not there. If a company is in business they are in it to make money. Business people keep a very watchful eye on public opinion so that they do not go out of business. That is why some people are good business people and others are not. Simples!

Many people do not see this for what it is - yet. Which is why it will get much worse.

The "simples" () is that many Muslim women want to go swimming but still cover up. M and S are meeting a need in the population.

Ok, they are making money out of it, but there again, they are a business. Nothing wrong with that.

I think it is missing the point to complain that M&S is encouraging the suppression of women by selling these garments.
It's like saying they are encouraging excessive alcohol consumption by selling fine wines.
No one has to buy a burkini and no one has to wear one.
Everyone seems to be assuming that Muslim women are forced to wear a headscarf, whereas my understanding is that the majority of them choose to, to demonstrate their adherence to their religion, which, let us not forget, is not that of the terrorists and the extremists.

As for the burkini itself, it strikes me as a very practical garment.
Here in the north-east, a group of nutters people brave the icy waters of the North Sea every day of the year.
If I were tempted to join them, the burkini would be my garment of choice

I am not a Muslim but I do have many friends around the world who are and I have intergrated into communities and been accepted for who I am. it is not religion that is dictating who should wear what but the leaders in a few very strict countries. The countries I have stayed in I have seen young girls dressed in jeans and a long sleeved tops With a head covering, riding motorbikes and chatting up boys! I wear a head covering, a sun hat! We hear talk of Muslim culture taking over in our country but what about westernisation in Muslim countries? Bikinis on sale in Malasia, a strong Muslim country etc. What gives us the right to say our way is best in dress and customs. We should all respect other people's values and dress code, even some other the sights we see amongst our own culture leave a lot to be desired.

I too agree absolutely with Lilyflower. There is a creeping normalisation of Muslim culture and values that are at odds with our culture and values and in some parts of the country attempts by Muslims to impose their values on us. Surely if Muslim women want burkinis they can buy online or in Muslim shops, M&S would be better employed producing clothes that I actually want to wear. A couple of times I have seen a completely covered Muslim lady at the bus stop in the morning eating a sandwich - for which she had to lift up her veil to get it in her mouth, seemed to defeat the object. We are an open society. I have no problem with headscarves, some of them look very attractive but object to faces being covered. It's not required in the Koran (depends on the version, I think). I do think, though, that many English girls could be a bit more modest in their dress.