A very English Scandal

Why the ‘socialist rant’ Day6 ? Trisher and I don’t agree on some things but I always respect her posts and her tenacity in arguing her corner.

Of course there is abuse at all levels of society Day6 but if you can post evidence of one instance where a poor, young working class person has abused a rich, powerful person of any sex I will willingly withdraw my remark. They don't, they can't. Abuse necessarily involves the misuse of power whatever level it takes place at, and young poor, vulnerable working class people have no power. They are at the bottom of the abusing scale.
And the abusers in these cases (as in many others) were rich, powerful and influential.

Attractive young men and women of poor we backgrounds have always used their allure to attract older rich men (and women) and fleece them. That's abuse too of course.

Is sex between two willing participants abuse ?

Yes it can be, of course it can. Willing is not a straightforward word

Any examples Jane10 or is that just one of those well known 'facts' which is used to justify privilege and is in fact an urban myth.

I didn't see trisher's comments as a 'socialist rant' either maryeliza54. I agreed with her post.

Jane10, yes please can we have evidence to justify your comment that attractive young men and women of poor backgrounds have always used their allure to attract and fleece wealthy men.

Annie, the young women in the Rochdale, Oxford, Rotherham were all said to be willing participants in abusive sexual experience. They were said to be making lifestyle choices. Again, abuse of power by men in order to 'enjoy' sex with no regard for their sexual partner.

AB what century are you living in? The days were young women were viewed as you view them belong to the Victorian Era or All Men Clubs.

Sexual harassment, grooming, drugs, alcohol abuse, mental health ...all these issues have moved forward, thank goodness, and are viewed very differently today than in less understanding times.

I'm not giving out names on such a public forum but I certainly could. Some are now quite respectable middle aged people who have cashed in their youthful looks and charms while they still had them.
However, certain historical figures are known about eg Nell Gwynn.

Very cryptic Jane ?

We'll no doubt never find consensus on this. I know a couple of young women who were at school with my children. Of the large group, the rest of the girls went on to work or higher education. These two by 17 were working as escorts. Whether they 'chose' this or whether their lack of self esteem, confidence and parental guidance allowed them to make awful choices in their mid teens, depends on your view of life. I suppose my socialist rant gene takes over

It’s pointless to keep arguing we will all have different viewpoints on this The rich and powerful certainly have more opportunity and generally more confidence and friends in the right place, likewise some young (and pretty) can take advantage of older people, however because of opportunity and connections it will be much more common in the former scenario
However abuse is abuse is abuse and not really worth arguing about all and varied permutations

Hang on Nell Gwynn to my knowledge never "fleeced" anyone. She was a well known and succesful comedy actress who became one of Charles11 mistresses. She bore him children, but died with debts. So who did she fleece? She is alleged to have referred to herself as a 'whore' on at least 2 occassions. One when her coach was surrounded and attacked by a crowd who thought she was Charles's French catholic mistress. She allegedly put her head out the window and replied to their shouts "No! I am the Protestant whore"

Oh come on - I think you are losing the argument if you use NG to prove a point?

That was to Jane btw

Iam, I didn’t read the children in Rotherham were 19 years of age

I never said abused children were not victims, I am speaking of girls who choose jobs in nightclubs, choose to become nightclub hostesses, choose to have affairs. They are all mentally ill, on drugs, suffering alcohol abuse ?

Not all girls are victims not all men are sexual predators.

Some girls choose being topless nightclub hostesses to working in supermarkets, restaurants etc.

I'm not arguing. It's all a matter of differing life experiences. As I said I'm not giving out real people's names on a public forum but they most certainly existed then and continue to do so now. Look beyond your prejudices and you may be surprised at what you find.
Nell Gwynn became well known and wealthy due to her charms. If she died penniless that was due to financial mismanagement in her old age.

She was only 37 when she died from syphilis, probably passed on to her by Charles. So hardly old.

So if you work in a nightclub you are fair game for anyone Annie? But a supermarket is OK because you obviously aren't 'asking for it'. I believe actresses were once considered to be the same as prostitutes. I did think we had moved on from there.

It was old in 1687 when life expectancy was 40! I think you understand perfectly well what annie meant!!!

nn the life expectancy figure you quote is the figure at birth. If you survived childhood ( which about 25% didn’t) then your life expectancy was into your 50s/60s . So NG could have expected another 20 years maybe .

A determination to see all sex workers as vulnerable victims is, at best, patronising and at worse reveals a deep rooted prejudice where such workers can only be “acceptable” to some people if the choice to be a sex worker can be viewed as having been forced upon them in some way.

This stance is deeply offensive to those who see themselves as workers, just like any other worker in any other field and has long been a hindrance in ensuring that sexworkers enjoy the same rights and legal protections as other workers.

Those who are determined to portray all sex workers as victims or “poor, working class” might benefit from exploring their own need to denigrate these service providers.

No I don't niggly so do enlighten me.
Girls who work in night clubs are no different to girls who work in supermarkets (although they may be paid better!)

Has anyone said "all sex workers are poor and working class"? We were discussing 2 young women. Keeler was brought up by her mother and abused by her mother's lover. Rice Davies was a policeman's daughter. Both were very young when they became involved with powerful people.