Anne Boleyn

Lin52

The Kell theory has been known and talked about amongst Academics for a while, there is also a huge following of Boleyn on You tube, run by an expert and author of books on the Tudor period. It doesn’t take the playing of her by Smith to define her, and tell us differently. Apparently it is historically inaccurate too. Still a bit of fantasy is all too quickly counted as fact. Not many will check them, just believe it.

I'm not sure of your point in this post, Lin52.

There is a link to an article on Kell theory at the start of this thread, and yes, there is the Anne Boleyn Society on YouTube (which is very interesting), as well as numerous other sources of information.

Are you saying in the second half of your post that because of this the new portrayal is not going to define Anne, or that it will, because people will take it as Gospel and believe it as 'fact' without checking the events portrayed?

IMO, it's just a drama. I have a particular interest in AB, for reasons I don't want to go into on here, but I would never take the portrayal of her (or anyone else) in a TV drama as 'fact', and I doubt that anyone with a knowledge of History would do so. And if people do believe the story in the series as being definitive, why would it matter? TV is not intended as exclusively educational, is it?

I do wish that media studies were a compulsory subject at school, so that people were taught the difference between documentary and drama, education and entertainment, and also the difference between received wisdom and fact.

I'm not saying that you don't understand the difference between these things, by the way - that is a general observation - I'm just struggling to understand what point you are making in your post.

I have just watched the first episode.
It wasn't very good, was it.

Re what Terribull^ refers to as " the disconnect between blaming the Jews for everything and our saviour Jesus being a Jew hence trying to eliminate what surely would have been his ethnicity" and most artists depicting him as a rather feminine-looking european, Max Liebermann, a German Jewish artist painted him in 1879 as a distinctly Jewish 12-year-old urchin confronting the learned Temple leaders. The reaction to the painting was so hostile that he changed it..
This is the work that survives -. arthive.com/maxliebermann/works/402129~Twelve_year_old_Jesus_in_the_temple

And this a preserved sketch of the original work - arthive.com/maxliebermann/works/402130~Twelve_year_old_Jesus_in_the_temple_Sketch

"Impressed by the strong negative reaction to his work, Max Liebermann changed the figure of Christ. However, to get some idea about the original intention we can. Preserved sketch looking at which, you can imagine why so outraged the guardians of morality and supporters an extremely Patriotic spirit. In addition, there a photocopy of the original. No emotion of the Central figure of Christ in this embodiment does not cause. Before us, barefoot, in rags, leaving no doubt the nationality of the nose of a rascal. Tense hands and angular, sharp posture clearly indicate that he entered into a bitter dispute with the Church elders. " Author: Alain Esaulova

No, eazybee it wasn’t good at all, I’m afraid. Hammy and poorly directed, don’t you think?

Dialogue is poor and people who don't know the history must be wondering who half the characters are. Henry is still disappointing or as Anne said tonight "pathetic" I was thinking that if they had chosen to do an all black production Lenny Henry would have made a good Henry. He's got the height and the presence to be really scary. What I have noticed is that Anne being black isn't bothering me at all now I'm much more annoyed by the whole production - that woman with the fringe for a start. Nobody had a fringe then, women were plucking their hair out to get a high forehead, not covering it with hair. Cromwell is coming across as an ineffectual idiot instead of the most powerful man at court and we don't seem to have had any of the new insights into Anne that we were promised.

we don't seem to have had any of the new insights into Anne that we were promised.
No, it has been disappointing in that respect.

I think Henry and Cromwell are pretty much in the background as it is Anne's story, but you are right that we aren't seeing her in much of a new light.

The cast is multi-racial, so Anne being black doesn't make a statement, which I'm pleased about.

The dialogue is pretty poor too. I'll stick with it, as there's only one episode left, but I'm quite disappointed in it.

I think I'm finding the dialogue poor because the dialogue in Wolf Hall was so beautifully written.

I noticed they were calling Henry Your Highness tonight. Henry had started using the title Your Majesty by now but used it interchangeably with Your Highness and Your Grace.

Perhaps there will be a surprise ending tonight; the rowing boat royal barge sent to convey Anne Boleyn to the Tower didn't look as though it would make it to the middle of the river before capsizing.

The entire cast, with the notable exception of Anna Brewster as Lady Rochford, are lacklustre. She would have made a far better Anne Boleyn.

The multi racial casting isn’t a problem for me, it adds something positive. I haven’t watched it yet though and given the comments here, about poor acting and dialogue, may give it a miss.

The awful Lawrence Fox is rambling on again. He says it’s racist to have a black actor play Ann Boleyn. Hopeless

I’m not going to bother to watch it after so many negative reviews.

I'm loving Lady Rochford. She's such a great character for an actor. Jessica Raine was brilliantly poisonous playing her in Wolf Hall.

I think Jane Seymour is just right. All pretend youth and innocence.

Ilovecheese

I think Jane Seymour is just right. All pretend youth and innocence.

Yes, especially the 'pretend' bit . She is so often seen as the 'good' contrast to the 'wicked' Anne, and it is unlikely that this was the case at all (even allowing for the fact that few women then had much say in their lives and choices).

I think Amanda Burton will get a chance to come into her own tonight. Lady Shelton accompanied Anne to the tower to spy on her - Anne wasn't allowed to have her own ladies around her.

It's another case where we have little by way of evidence, but it is likely that the women did not like one another - Anne did say words to the effect that the king had been unkind to put those around her whom she did not call friends, and as has been shown in the drama, Lady Shelton's daughter, Madge had an affair with Henry.

We don't know who accompanied Anne to her execution, but it was quite likely that Lady Shelton was among the ladies who supported her, and dramatically it is likely that a better known actress will be given a bigger role than she has had so far.

Amanda Burton is capable of a lot more than her role so far has allowed her to do, so maybe things will improve with tonight's episode? ?

Lady Shelton accompanied Anne to the Tower and certainly spied on her; her daughter Madge was betrothed to Henry Norris so even more reason to resent her, but she was dismissed from Anne's service four days before her execution, along with Mrs. Coffyn. The Queen was accompanied to the scaffold by 'four young ladies', names unknown but possibly from her younger ladies in waiting.
However, the author of this drama isn't particularly influenced by accuracy, so I expect Amanda Burton, an excellent actress, will be there; she is certainly familiar with blood and death.

Yes Deedaa the woman with the fringe is really irritating me too!?
I agree with others, nothing new (yet?), poor script.
I must look up the costume designer, because the dresses look ill fitting, and the bodices look like shields. Lovely colours but not very authentic.
I'm probably comparing it with the Cate Blanchett film of Elizabeth 1, which obviously had a bigger budget (and a different subject matter!!).

Watched both episodes out of curiosity. DH who is no history buff kept asking who people were. Very unclear characters nothing new. To smack the kings face was probably punishable by death anyway!!!! Another" Anne of a thousand days ", to be archived and forgotten. A lot of hype about nothing much except a person of colour playing Anne and George to get the ratings up? Though I will watch tonight just to see how they end it

I don't think that Madge Shelton's betrothal to Norris is reason enough to be sure that Anne would resent her mother, although Madge's affair with Henry would have been.

I knew that she was dismissed from Anne's service immediately before the execution, but as far as I am aware there is no record of which ladies accompanied her to the scaffold. In fact there was no coffin provided for Anne's body, so she ended up in a trunk - it doesn't seem that the logistics of it all had been thought through very well.

Yes, that was my point about Amanda Burton. As her role so far has been small, I think she will work for her fee in tonight's episode!

Namsnanny Good point about the dresses. The fabrics don't seem suitable for the styles, so the gathered skirts are bunched up at the waist, and you're right about the bodices.

Didn't Anne in the first episode ask Madge if she had been visited by Henry? which I took to mean that she knew and was manipulating her to provide services, so would she be upset? I think providing women for Henry when one of his wives was pregnant was usual practice.

Total disappointment, wooden acting, awful costumes, will not bother with the last episode. It’s tempting to believe they thought that having Anne played by a black actress was enough of an innovation that they didn’t need to make a drama of quality.

trisher

Didn't Anne in the first episode ask Madge if she had been visited by Henry? which I took to mean that she knew and was manipulating her to provide services, so would she be upset? I think providing women for Henry when one of his wives was pregnant was usual practice.

Yes, usually that is true, but by this stage Anne would have been aware that her position was precarious, and that she was ripe for being replaced. Others in the court would be aware of the situation too, and there would have been jockeying for position as the next Queen.

Nanna58

Total disappointment, wooden acting, awful costumes, will not bother with the last episode. It’s tempting to believe they thought that having Anne played by a black actress was enough of an innovation that they didn’t need to make a drama of quality.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there.??

The most natural black actors and actresses were in the series called Roots. The whole thing deserved an Oscar.
Picking out some black actress just for the heck of it doesn't cut it for me.

I can’t help wondering how many people only watched it because of the ‘black Anne’ controversy.

Would those GNers who did watch it, have watched it anyway?
Just interested. (I didn’t watch it.)

Oh yes!

I don't think the casting was relevant at all, and didn't before I watched it. Skin colour is not the most important thing to me, and I don't think the casting added or detracted from the story a bit. I wish the same could be said for the scriptwriting and the direction ?

Witzend

I can’t help wondering how many people only watched it because of the ‘black Anne’ controversy.

Would those GNers who did watch it, have watched it anyway?
Just interested. (I didn’t watch it.)

Good question, Witzend! I doubt I'd have watched it had I not seen the trailer. I thought it looked excellent. The fact she was black wasn't important. I thought she looked stunning. However I turned it off before the end of the first episode. I found it rather a slog to watch and some of the script just wasn't convincing.