Izzard as female reimagining of Dr Jekyll, anyone ?

Sorry - my second paragraph should begin 'I agree'!

I didn't equate it. I asked two separate questions.

I disagree that barriers that allow men to nurture and women to step outside of gender roles should be dismantled; but to me, that's the crux of the matter - gender is a construct, and insisting that it can be changed buys into the notion that it is somehow connected to sex.

The TWAW mantra reinforces gender roles by saying that men who 'see themselves as women' (although so few ever say what that means) can only step outside of those roles by 'being' women, if only in their heads. I would much rather see men being men as they care and nurture, and women being women as they step outside of assigned roles, and neither sex feeling that they have to abandon their sex in favour of the other in order to do so.

My other question is whether there is anything that you would protect and keep for women (in fact for either sex) without opening it to all comers?

Doodledog

You are missing the point that poor Pammie1 has made several times.

Jeckyl/Hyde is traditionally a male role. It has been 'reimagined' as female, so the logical thing would be to give it to a woman. But no. It has gone to a man who sometimes has 'girly days'.

Why do you think that any and all 'gender bending' is 'good'? Or is that misrepresenting what you said above in your post at 12.56? Is there anything that you would protect and keep for women only?

All gender bending is good because it blurs the lines and the barriers which have been imposed by the patriachy. It means men can be caring and nurturing without losing their masculinity, it means women are not restricted to the roles assigned to them. It means more equality.
I don't understand why you would equate provision for women with gender bending. What has how someone presents or their gender got to do with that?

AmberSpyglass

Why are we all assuming Nina Jekyll is a cis woman? Given the casting, it’s much more likely she’ll be a trans woman.

cis woman?
What's that?

There's Woman and there's Transwoman.
Fact.

tidyskatemum

Riverwalk you are not allowed to call Eddie Izzard “he” or the thought police will be after you. Eddie Izzard is a self-appointed woman who happens to have all the male bits

There's more to being a woman than throwing on a frock and piling on a load of slap.
Woman is something that can't be worn and it's more than a 'feeling'

If a male person has all his bits (and contrary to popular belief the majority of transwomen don't get rid of their male members), then that person is male.
Biology doesn't lie.

You are missing the point that poor Pammie1 has made several times.

Jeckyl/Hyde is traditionally a male role. It has been 'reimagined' as female, so the logical thing would be to give it to a woman. But no. It has gone to a man who sometimes has 'girly days'.

Why do you think that any and all 'gender bending' is 'good'? Or is that misrepresenting what you said above in your post at 12.56? Is there anything that you would protect and keep for women only?

Rosie51

trisher

Sorry I thought one of the points being made was that a male character had become female? I simply pointed out this is a common occurrence in film making.

I think the main point being made, clearly to my mind, was that a role had been re-imagined from a male character to a female character, and normal logic would expect that character to now be played by a female actor not a male one, otherwise why bother with the change?

That's a bit like asking what is the point of any script, if you haven't read it how can you possibly comment?

trisher

Sorry I thought one of the points being made was that a male character had become female? I simply pointed out this is a common occurrence in film making.

I think the main point being made, clearly to my mind, was that a role had been re-imagined from a male character to a female character, and normal logic would expect that character to now be played by a female actor not a male one, otherwise why bother with the change?

Sorry I thought one of the points being made was that a male character had become female? I simply pointed out this is a common occurrence in film making.

I've just googled Ripley and it seems the role was changed from a male part to be acted by a male to a female part to be acted by a female, so totally different and not relevant to this discussion at all.
From Wicki Ridley Scott, director of the first film in the series, Alien, made the decision early in production to switch Ripley from a standard male action hero to a heroine

trisher

Rosie51

I have never seen the Alien films but is Ripley written as an obviously male character but acted by an obviously female actor?

Yes. Originally a male character when the script was written Sigourney Weaver was in the film. It's not the only instance. Characters often change when the parts are cast, they also change sometimes in re-makes of older films.

I'm not keen on Eddie Redmayne although I know he is very succesful I believe he said after playng the part that transgender parts should go to transgender actors. I wouldn't condone any condemnation of an actor for a part they played.

You say originally a male character, so did Sigourney Weaver play it as a man although she is obviously a woman?

Eddie Redmayne only decided transgender parts should be played by transgender actors because he saw the writing on the wall from TRAs. Transgender actors can't be a lone sacred caste so presumably nobody can play a part they aren't. No more science fiction, historical dramas, thrillers. Might as well give up completely.

Rosie51

I have never seen the Alien films but is Ripley written as an obviously male character but acted by an obviously female actor?

Yes. Originally a male character when the script was written Sigourney Weaver was in the film. It's not the only instance. Characters often change when the parts are cast, they also change sometimes in re-makes of older films.

I'm not keen on Eddie Redmayne although I know he is very succesful I believe he said after playng the part that transgender parts should go to transgender actors. I wouldn't condone any condemnation of an actor for a part they played.

Yes.

Talk about tedious, offensive, confrontational nonsense.
It is the usual discriminatory shit’ . Yes indeed, directed at women

I have never seen the Alien films but is Ripley written as an obviously male character but acted by an obviously female actor?

trisher It's simply who fits the part best and in this case it's Eddie Izzard. Everything else is just irrelevant and the usual "I'm not prejudiced but"
Have you nothing to say about the flack Eddie Redmayne received then? Or is it a case of "I'm not a hypocrite but...."?

There are quite a few parts which were originally written for men which have gone to a woman- Ripley in the Alien films for example. Actors audition for parts and sometimes a part is written with an actor in mind. It's simply who fits the part best and in this case it's Eddie Izzard. Everything else is just irrelevant and the usual "I'm not prejudiced but"

trisher The argument seems to be that because the character is originally male and has been rewritten as female someone who was identified as female at birth has to play it. It is the usual discriminatory shit so I take it you are against all that 'shit' aimed at Eddie Redmayne for portraying a transwoman when he isn't one? Good to know you're not a hypocrite.

AmberSpyglass

Why would you cast a cis woman in a trans woman’s role? That doesn’t make sense.

So in that case a transwoman may only act in a part that is described as a transwoman, she can never act the part of a natal woman, because she isn't one. Not going to be too many opportunities for transmen or transwomen actors then unless it beccomes law that every production must include a trans character.

Trisher I never said you were unladylike, I have no idea whether your GN persona reflects your true persona. I said you used a vulgar word.

AmberSpyglass

Why would you cast a cis woman in a trans woman’s role? That doesn’t make sense.

It would if you felt that TWAW, but if not, then I suppose the role would go to a man? Or just an actor, really. I'm not sure that there are enough trans actors to corner all the roles, are there? Genuine question.

If so, then it would make sense to cast them in the role of transwomen, but Izzard is not a transwoman - or not as I understand it anyway.

It's not 'shit'. It is part of the pattern of women being pushed aside to make room for men, which underlies a lot of the TWAW mantra.

Izzard is not a transwoman. If that were the case, and if he then only played female roles, then fair enough. But no - he wants the best of both worlds.

Men 'competing' against women in sport, female shortlists becoming meaningless, Adele getting flak for saying that she enjoys being a woman, people who are adamant that TWAW being unable to say what a woman actually is - all of that is discriminatory, and when feminists are accused of transphobia for their objections, it gets utterly, utterly tiresome.

trisher

AmberSpyglass

Why are we all assuming Nina Jekyll is a cis woman? Given the casting, it’s much more likely she’ll be a trans woman.

Good point AmberSpyglass . The role may also have been written specifically with Eddie Izzard in mind. That happens sometimes.
As for the erosion of natal women. It's happened all the time in films and plays, men acting women's roles, women portraying men. The argument seems to be that because the character is originally male and has been rewritten as female someone who was identified as female at birth has to play it. It is the usual discriminatory shit

So, now it’s ‘discriminatory shit’ to discuss this but it’s not discriminatory shit to receive online abuse for saying you’re proud to be a natural woman. I’m out.

Why would you cast a cis woman in a trans woman’s role? That doesn’t make sense.

AmberSpyglass

Why are we all assuming Nina Jekyll is a cis woman? Given the casting, it’s much more likely she’ll be a trans woman.

cis is a term which is offensive to many and best not used.