Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

No need to sigh.

Why would black people be servants? Was there the sort of racism we see today?

Just think about it Doodledog! Was there an influx of wealthy black aristocrats into England in those days?

If they weren’t members of the aristocracy in the court then they were servants, and tbh I think my sigh was justified .

X posts

On a lighter note, if you watched the first Bridgeton, you would know that half the aristocracy of Britain were black. Some even sported dreadlocks, dyed blonde. A fantasy ,I know . No where near the truth .

I bought both books just a short time ago and was looking forward to reading them. However, I fear I have wasted my money as I don't like the style of writing at all. I had previously read a book about the same time period which was far superior. (can't remember the name of the author).

There is some argument at the moment about the casting in this drama. Something which the BBC should remember is that schoolchildren are encouraged to watch historical dramas, as it helps bring history to life. It must be very confusing for them when the actors don't fit their parts.

I struggle with the style of writing in the books too, mum2three. I loved Wolf Hall, however.

I don’t think children would struggle with an occasional black face at court though. It is adults who set store by this sort of thing - children don’t, unless they are taught that skin colour matters.

Children wouldn’t struggle with it , not for any enlightened views but for ignorant ones as they know nothing of the Tudor Court and would be prepared to believe anything.

It isn’t a race matter but a historical accuracy matter.

I thought all three books were brilliant and was sad when I finished them, I did enjoy the first tv series and am looking forward to this one too.

If you say so. I disagree, but it doesn’t matter. I CBA to ‘discuss’ in the face of sighs and accusations of being ‘ignorant’. Gransnet has changed over the past few months - we used to be able to debate without this sort of thing, but now every thread seems to result in insults and personal digs.

Oreo

A sort of Tudor Trump 😁

Just what I was thinking other night! I then mentally added ‘a Tudor Putin.’

In the end I did watch and wasn’t thrown by anybody’s colour yet. How terrifying they all were except perhaps the Duke of Norfolk. They could have actually done with an actor who looked like his portrait.

Doodledog

If you say so. I disagree, but it doesn’t matter. I CBA to ‘discuss’ in the face of sighs and accusations of being ‘ignorant’. Gransnet has changed over the past few months - we used to be able to debate without this sort of thing, but now every thread seems to result in insults and personal digs.

Now this is just silly, and you know you weren’t called ignorant.
Your view is that it doesn’t matter on tv or film if real white characters in history are portrayed by non white actors and mine is that truth matters more than art in this sort of case.

luluaugust

In the end I did watch and wasn’t thrown by anybody’s colour yet. How terrifying they all were except perhaps the Duke of Norfolk. They could have actually done with an actor who looked like his portrait.

Timothy Spall was an odd choice I think.

Oreo

I thought all three books were brilliant and was sad when I finished them, I did enjoy the first tv series and am looking forward to this one too.

I agree with all 3 of your latest posts Oreo and I think Hilary Mantel's books are wonderful. I've read all 3 several times. The writing is exquisite.

Someone mentioned the tv programme on iPlayer "Peter Kosminsky Remembers Wolf Hall" which I found very interesting. He is the director of Wolf Hall and talks about how both series were made, and about the main actors and, of course, about Hilary Mantel. You might enjoy it.

Uncle Norfolk in the books and more than likely in real life was a bad tempered uncouth man.

Thanks Sparklefizz😃

Doodledog

Posted too soon.

I meant to ask why skin colour is so important?

Well, it depends on your point of view. Some posters are saying this is a dramatisation and not a documentary, which of course is correct. This implies that slavish accuracy is unimportant. By that token, the actors could wear Victorian costumes, live in Georgian houses and be smoking tobacco. I expect however that researchers have left no stone unturned when it comes to the minutest detail of Tudor life. The fact then remains that the only black people at court, if any at all, would have been servants. So we have two choices. Either we abandon reality and simply enjoy this, or any other drama, on its own merits or we try to portray history as closely as possible to the information available.

FoghornLeghorn

keepingquiet

I suggest people read some real historical evidence for there being black people in the courts of all the Tudor monarchs.

Try Marina Kauffmann's book 'Black Tudors: The Untold Story for starters.

I do not dispute that there were black Tudors. In fact I have read the book you mention. However, there can be no dispute that Jane Seymour’s mother and sister were white. They’re being black would require an entire fabrication of their lineage. This is a fact. I would not expect to see Mark Rylance playing Nelson Mandela and suspect there would be a very loud outcry from certain quarters should this ever be considered.

For historical accuracy then yes, there would have been some black people at court; a musician, servants and in Tudor times, ambassadors from some countries.

However, However, there can be no dispute that Jane Seymour’s mother and sister were white. They’re being black would require an entire fabrication of their lineage. This is a fact. I would not expect to see Mark Rylance playing Nelson Mandela and suspect there would be a very loud outcry from certain quarters should this ever be considered

and changing any of this to suit today's sensibilities is wrong.

and be smoking tobacco.

Well, not discovered yet!b
By the time of that Monarch's daughter there would have been tobacco around Court. They used clay pipes or chewed it.

If they're not going to aim for historical accuracy, all the actors may as well be wearing jeans!

I've just checked and the Duke of Norfolk is supposed to be in his 40's when Anne Boleyn died.

I'm not sure how old Timothy Spall is but he looks much older.

I'm now struggling with an image of Henry VIII in jeans. How big would they be 😂

Millie22

I'm now struggling with an image of Henry VIII in jeans. How big would they be 😂

Well, if we're going to ignore historical accuracy and realism, Henry VIII could be skinny and short with black hair ... and wearing jeans.