Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

Tje only known black man at the court of henry V111 was John Blanke, a trumpeter who played at the funeral of Henry V11 and later for Henry V111.
Tobacco was introduced in England by Francis Drake or John Hawkins in about 1573, although popularly credited to Walter Raleigh, about ten years later

The, Henry V111.
Black people would have been extremely unusual so much more likely to have been recorded.

Not if their being black wasn't considered an issue.

Millie22

I've just checked and the Duke of Norfolk is supposed to be in his 40's when Anne Boleyn died.

I'm not sure how old Timothy Spall is but he looks much older.

40s was old in those days!

Tim is 67.

keepingquiet

Not if their being black wasn't considered an issue.

It would not have been so much an issue as unusual so remarkable.

I expect any day now that Benedict Cumberbatch will be announced as playing Nelson Mandela and Kate Winslet as Rosa Parks in 2 new historical series being

JdotJ

I expect any day now that Benedict Cumberbatch will be announced as playing Nelson Mandela and Kate Winslet as Rosa Parks in 2 new historical series being

And won't there be a kerfuffle when that happens?

Just think, sometime in the future, when all this prejudice has been laid to rest, the colour of a human’s skin will be totally unremarkable and the only thing that matters will be the persons ability and skill as an actor. We will have achieved that happy state of not “seeing a person’s totally irrelevant skin colour.

Unfortunately concentrating on skin colour, suggests a persons colour is more important than anything else, which of course is nonsense.

There was always people of different colour on these islands throughout our history. Prejudice was largely centred on faith - catholics, Muslim, Jews, Protestant etc. not on colour, so a persons skin colour was not considered remarkable.

Yes Whitewavemark2 wouldn’t that be nice? But it would still have zilch to do with making the Tudor court aristocracy anything but white, when they were all white as was most of our island nation bar a tiny percentage.
We can and do make light entertainment like Bridgerton where anything goes but Mantel’s books, while a mixture of fact and poetic license are depicting real people and if the Tudor architecture and clothes and so on aim for reality then the aristocracy have to be white.
As others say, would you like to see an actor like say, Jude Law play Martin Luther King?

It is not prejudice, it is a desire for accuracy.

Exactly

eazybee

It is not prejudice, it is a desire for accuracy.

This.

Younger people watching would get the impression that this was what Tudor England was like when it would be patently wrong.

Remember Roots? It was fiction based on fact, should it ever be remade should white actors replace black actors? Would we tell viewers not to notice?

flappergirl I can’t seem to quote your post directly but thank you for replying without insults or sarcasm when disagreeing with me. That’s refreshing these days.

I wasn’t being ‘silly’, and I am not ignorant of Tudor history. I just don’t think an insistence on one aspect of people’s appearance falling into line with a certain view of the world (ie that dark skin confers low status and always has) is either accurate or acceptable. In most cases, however meticulous the research, we don’t know what people looked like, and in any case it doesn’t matter.

Insisting on a particular view of ‘accuracy’ is very likely to result in inaccuracy, and those saying that children will be taught the wrong ‘facts’ are, IMO misguided. This is not a children’s drama for a start. Also, as WWM says, colour is far from being the most important aspect of someone’s appearance, so why shouldn’t children of colour (if any are watching) see people like themselves represented in roles other than servants?

Whenever this subject arises someone clutches at the Nelson Mandela straw. It matters that NM is black (as with the enslaved characters in Roots) because the story is about colour prejudice and injustice towards black people. Racism is not an issue in the story of the Tudors, so it is no more important than insisting on X walking with a limp or Y having missing teeth, or pockmarked skin unless those characteristics play a role in their fate. We don’t know what many of them looked like, and unless it matters to the story (eg in the case of H8’s ulcerated leg) the insistence that dark skin = low status is a modern concept held by those of a particular world view. It is not based on historical accuracy until long after the Tudor period.

Are any of the main characters black? I watched but can’t say I noticed. A quick mental run through suggests not though. I would argue that the fact that Henry was obese and had a putrid leg wound is important to the story, as his temper and lack of sexual prowess matter to the story and to the fate of his wives. There are other theories that could explain why he had no sons who survived to adulthood, and could also explain is irascibility, but they are not yet proven, and anyway would not have been understood back then, so showing the grossly overweight and bad tempered man gives an indication of how his impotence would have been perceived at the time, and gives a motive for any infidelity on the part of his wives. What other characters looked like is far less integral to the story, if it matters at all.

Henry's physical state developed over time. I noted that he was limping a lot in the recent episode. The men all look so short and fat with those huge wide costume.
As to accuracy of historical ethnicity in this production - it's all been said.

Posters are not insulting or sarcastic but they are entitled to offer a different viewpoint for consideration.
Intransigence does not always mean someone is right.

Aveline

Henry's physical state developed over time. I noted that he was limping a lot in the recent episode. The men all look so short and fat with those huge wide costume.
As to accuracy of historical ethnicity in this production - it's all been said.

It has been said over and over, but if a poster doesn’t agree then we repeat and go round in circles.
The only other point regarding accuracy is that we do know what both King Henry and his wives and children and most of the Tudor aristocracy looked like as there are so many portraits of them all.
It isn’t for children but there are lots of adults with no clue about the Tudor period of history, not only recent immigrants to our country either, who may watch this.I haven’t seen it yet as for lack of time and there may well be ‘nothing to see here’ about it but the principle stands that dramatisations of real characters from history should retain their authenticity.

Aveline

Henry's physical state developed over time. I noted that he was limping a lot in the recent episode. The men all look so short and fat with those huge wide costume.
As to accuracy of historical ethnicity in this production - it's all been said.

Henry developed horrible leg ulcers due to an injury. He did become enormous by all accounts.

the principle stands that dramatisations of real characters from history should retain their authenticity

I agree.

Allira

Posters are not insulting or sarcastic but they are entitled to offer a different viewpoint for consideration.
Intransigence does not always mean someone is right.

Agreed. But choice of language is also important, as is tone, and belittling those with whom you disagree is not a neutral act.

I never meant any of my tone to belittle anyone especially you Doodledog my Corrie friend.

You didn't, Aveline. You and I just disagree on this issue, which is fine. You weren't belittling at all.

Dammit! Must try harder titch!

Allira

Millie22

I've just checked and the Duke of Norfolk is supposed to be in his 40's when Anne Boleyn died.

I'm not sure how old Timothy Spall is but he looks much older.

40s was old in those days!

Tim is 67.

He looks much older since he lost so much weight too.

I do love Timothy Spall but whatever part he plays I instantly think, 'Oh that's Timothy Small'! He's just to recognisable and memorable in a good way.

Sarnia

Allira

Millie22

I've just checked and the Duke of Norfolk is supposed to be in his 40's when Anne Boleyn died.

I'm not sure how old Timothy Spall is but he looks much older.

40s was old in those days!

Tim is 67.

He looks much older since he lost so much weight too.

He does look older than 67. He's a good actor, and has a huge range. I think that often happens when people aren't conventionally good looking. Toby Jones is the same.