Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

keeping quiet I have no problem with casting reflecting the diversity of modern life. However, when it is just plain historically inaccurate it strikes a very jarring note and undermines the authenticity if the production . Have you ever seen Holbein's wonderful drawings of court characters of the time? All white people.

biglouis

I watched it early pm. Was disappointed that all 6 episodes are not available to watch now on i-player. I will watch it again later.

Me too. I much prefer to see things all at once than have to wait a week between episodes. I saw the first one yesterday and may now wait until they are all up and watch them one after the other over a couple of days rather than several weeks.

Clawdy

What on earth is the problem with diversity casting? The acting is far more important. I've never seen a better portrayal of David Copperfield than Dev Patel's!

I don't understand the hangups people have over this sort of thing either. We know we are watching a dramatisation of a novel, and that much of the dialogue is invented, as are the personalities of the characters.

All we know for sure is that X happened on Y date and bits of partisan recollections from surviving letters and other documents. The rest is pieced together by historians who argue amongst themselves about motives and affiliations etc. W

Posted too soon.

I meant to ask why skin colour is so important?

eazybee

On last night's performance I thought Timothy Spall would have fitted in better at Hogwarts, looking like a confused wizard; he didn't have that air of brutality that Bernard Hall brought to Thomas Howard, a most unpleasant character. The actor playing Chapuys, a diversity replacement, was actually very convincing.

Why did Ambassador Chapuys , who is listed in Mantell's actual book as a "French Speaker from Savoy"(which is in France) have to be " diversity replaced" when the excellent Mathieu Almaric , the original actor who played Chapuys, I think, is actually French?
The new actor is Iranian. I agree he's OK in the role, although not as good as Almaric of whom I am a huge fan. Just don't see why this was a diversity recasting.
This isn't a general comment on diversity casting , which I have mixed views about , drama OK probably , history not so much ,

I suppose the cynics could say that whereas Mantell had a pretty firm grip on the production values of the first series, and I’m not saying whether or not she wanted an all white cast, who knows, but once she was out of the picture, the BBC had pretty much carte blanche to cast whoever they liked, black, white or sky blue pink. It seems sort of coincidental. I remember the BBC production of Troy having a large cohort of black actors - not least of them David Gyasi playing Achilles. Wot?? I have a very soft spot for David Gyasi but not as Achilles. It raised a lot of hackles, but to be honest even if the cast had been all Caucasian, it wouldn’t have lifted it out of the doldrums - it was pretty poor.

Aveline

*keeping quiet* I have no problem with casting reflecting the diversity of modern life. However, when it is just plain historically inaccurate it strikes a very jarring note and undermines the authenticity if the production . Have you ever seen Holbein's wonderful drawings of court characters of the time? All white people.

Oh for Heaven's sake! If you see a painting of the present Royal Family, you would only see the same.

This is historical drama, not a history documentary.

Avaline is quite right; it strikes a jarring note and only done to appease the Actors Unions who insist on a certain number of ethnic parts just to get ethnic minorities in a job.

Regarding the 'colour-blind' casting, it was impossible that one of the English aristocrats assembled to discuss Princess Mary would be a black man. It's a pity because he looked good in costume but it does jar in this serial, which may be fiction but is based on real events and its sets, locations and costumes have been chosen to seem as authentic as possible. I've seen a black Brutus in Julius Caesar at The Globe and that worked surprisingly well, though.

By the way, I think that Savoy was an independent duchy in those days, with both French and Italian speakers. It's a stretch to choose an Iranian actor but I think it works.

Doodledog

Clawdy

What on earth is the problem with diversity casting? The acting is far more important. I've never seen a better portrayal of David Copperfield than Dev Patel's!

I don't understand the hangups people have over this sort of thing either. We know we are watching a dramatisation of a novel, and that much of the dialogue is invented, as are the personalities of the characters.

All we know for sure is that X happened on Y date and bits of partisan recollections from surviving letters and other documents. The rest is pieced together by historians who argue amongst themselves about motives and affiliations etc. W

We know the historical characters were white.

keepingquiet

Three things: what a shame we still can't see past the colour of someone's skin.

And: who is to know there weren't black people in London (maybe at court) then? There is plenty of eveidence for ethnic diversity in Tudor London- maybe because it wasn't much of an issue it wasn't mentioned overtly? I think it quite likely Mantel asked for some diversity in the cast.

Three: regarding Cromwell and Henry Tudor- can we see parallels here with Trump and Musk? I certainly can after reading FGT2's kind sharing of the Kominsky article?

One extra fact- Dev Patel is not Indian. He was born in Harrow.

Only one black character in the Tudor court is known about, he was a trumpeter apparently.

keepingquiet

Aveline

keeping quiet I have no problem with casting reflecting the diversity of modern life. However, when it is just plain historically inaccurate it strikes a very jarring note and undermines the authenticity if the production . Have you ever seen Holbein's wonderful drawings of court characters of the time? All white people.

Oh for Heaven's sake! If you see a painting of the present Royal Family, you would only see the same.

This is historical drama, not a history documentary.

It’s about real people who existed.

Oreo

Doodledog

Clawdy

What on earth is the problem with diversity casting? The acting is far more important. I've never seen a better portrayal of David Copperfield than Dev Patel's!

I don't understand the hangups people have over this sort of thing either. We know we are watching a dramatisation of a novel, and that much of the dialogue is invented, as are the personalities of the characters.

All we know for sure is that X happened on Y date and bits of partisan recollections from surviving letters and other documents. The rest is pieced together by historians who argue amongst themselves about motives and affiliations etc. W

We know the historical characters were white.

Well yes, I get this. Christian religious pictures really annoy me, as they mostly picture Jesus as white, often even blond with blue eyes- which is just ridiculous.

Indeed

Yes, indeed.

Thinking about it tho, have never seen a painting of a blond Nordic Jesus, but some African countries do have icons of a black Jesus.Both of which are wrong.

vintage1950

By the way, I think that Savoy was an independent duchy in those days, with both French and Italian speakers. It's a stretch to choose an Iranian actor but I think it works.

Fair enough vintage1950 but that would make the Frenchman equally as diverse as the Iranian.
I just think Almaric is excellent and why take one of the perfect stones out of the perfect broach....just for the sake of it.
Nothing against Iran or Iranians or this actor.
Different actors getting a chance to become as famous as the "top tier "of actors is fair enough but is a slightly different argument , I feel.
Anyroad I'm still enjoying it enormously.
Feel that the excellent Timothy Spall not quite hitting the right note Yet.......

Boz

Avaline is quite right; it strikes a jarring note and only done to appease the Actors Unions who insist on a certain number of ethnic parts just to get ethnic minorities in a job.

Is this true, or have you assumed it? I ask as I really want to know - I'm not being combative. I don't know anyone in Equity to ask.

We know the historical characters were white.
Do we? How?

As an example, we do know that there were black people in Roman garrisons for instance, and that some of them settled here and had descendants. Why wouldn't some of them have ended up in the court hundreds of years later? The population was small, and the degrees of separation between people were correspondingly much fewer than nowadays.

I suggest people read some real historical evidence for there being black people in the courts of all the Tudor monarchs.

Try Marina Kauffmann's book 'Black Tudors: The Untold Story for starters.

keepingquiet

I suggest people read some real historical evidence for there being black people in the courts of all the Tudor monarchs.

Try Marina Kauffmann's book 'Black Tudors: The Untold Story for starters.

I do not dispute that there were black Tudors. In fact I have read the book you mention. However, there can be no dispute that Jane Seymour’s mother and sister were white. They’re being black would require an entire fabrication of their lineage. This is a fact. I would not expect to see Mark Rylance playing Nelson Mandela and suspect there would be a very loud outcry from certain quarters should this ever be considered.

Doodledog

Boz

Avaline is quite right; it strikes a jarring note and only done to appease the Actors Unions who insist on a certain number of ethnic parts just to get ethnic minorities in a job.

Is this true, or have you assumed it? I ask as I really want to know - I'm not being combative. I don't know anyone in Equity to ask.

You will not, I believe, find anything written by Equity but they are committed to racial inclusivity.
Yes - ethnic minority actors have a right to work but surely it makes artistic sense to be contextual to the period and plot?
It would annoy me to see a white actress playing, for eg. The No.1 Ladies Detective and I recently watched Pachinko - all Korean and Japanese actors and so brilliant.
Don't forget, it is also a marketing ploy to interest a multi-cultural audience - debatable imo.

Doodledog

*We know the historical characters were white.*
Do we? How?

As an example, we do know that there were black people in Roman garrisons for instance, and that some of them settled here and had descendants. Why wouldn't some of them have ended up in the court hundreds of years later? The population was small, and the degrees of separation between people were correspondingly much fewer than nowadays.

Sigh
They may have been servants I grant you, or maybe not.The only black person verified was a trumpeter at the court.

But if you insist, 😄maybe the Duke of Norfolk was black.