Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

I felt quite sorry for Cromwell last night even though he's been the instigator of several executions. It became glaringly obvious to him that the knives are ever present around him. Does anyone know what happened to Dorothea after the dissolution of the monasteries?

No wonder Cromwell has that permanently worried expression on his face.

One wrong word and you're in big trouble...

Yes, Lady Rochford used to be played by Jessica Raine

Have they changed the actress who plays Lady Rochford too? It was a bit confusing when he was talking to her before I realised who she was. She's certainly careless about what she says about Henry, and to Cromwell of all people

I thought episode 2 was a fantastic exposure of how Cromwell is beginning to feel insecure; in his relationship with Henry and also with the various women he inter-acts with. His sense of isolation in the end was tangible and excellently played by Mark Rylance.

Me too, keepingquiet. Mark Rylance's facial expressions can convey so much. He's a wonderful actor.

Lovetopaint but last night I had to keep asking “who is she supposed to be?”

I found it helpful that characters quite often used the person's name when they were talking to them!

We have read all the books and seen the previous dramatisations. This one is of course well done but last night I had to keep asking “who is she supposed to be?” My dh was often uncertain and it more time to gather who they were. Would add this was not my favourite book out of the three. Enjoyed Bring Up the Bodies more than the other two.

It was very good, wasn’t it? The Tudor court was really a nest of vipers.

Yes, just because we are obsessed (or so it seems, reading this) with the colour of someone's skin does not mean people in the past were so.

Pre the Trans-Atlantic slave trade attitudes to skin colour were probably very different, but 'black' people had to be de-humanised in order to see them as units of commerce, not quite human. I think this is where people get confused about how people of diverse ethnicities were regarded.

We shouldn't transfer our social mores onto the past.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the slave trade either. Just making a point.

I thought episode 2 was a fantastic exposure of how Cromwell is beginning to feel insecure; in his relationship with Henry and also with the various women he inter-acts with. His sense of isolation in the end was tangible and excellently played by Mark Rylance.

Yes

Well I am sure that if there had been black characters at the Tudor court this would have attracted the unwelcome attention of such a status obsessed gathering.

But this assumes that black skin = low status.

One of the hangups of the Tudor court was the origin of one's family. Even at the height of his power Wolsey was reviled by the old aristocracy for his "low" birth. And we know that Cromwell too came from a humble background. When such men rose to power it evoked the emnity of those who considered temselves "gentlemen". In the play Wolsey himself jokes ironically that Cromwell has come from a lower background than himself. The Tudor courtiers were obsessed with status and title. There are entire scenes devoted to discussion of how men who rise to prominence in public life are torn down with great delight. This is still the case. Just think of the current disgrace of a certain archbishop.

Well I am sure that if there had been black characters at the Tudor court this would have attracted the unwelcome attention of such a status obsessed gathering.

There was another series called "Becoming Elizabeth" in which several black actors popped up. One was cast as "Sir Perdo" and explained away as a Moor from Spain who had converted. However their presence close to the seat of power was not well recieved by the traditional gentry.

Sarnia

Allira

Millie22

I've just checked and the Duke of Norfolk is supposed to be in his 40's when Anne Boleyn died.

I'm not sure how old Timothy Spall is but he looks much older.

40s was old in those days!

Tim is 67.

He looks much older since he lost so much weight too.

He does look older than 67. He's a good actor, and has a huge range. I think that often happens when people aren't conventionally good looking. Toby Jones is the same.

I do love Timothy Spall but whatever part he plays I instantly think, 'Oh that's Timothy Small'! He's just to recognisable and memorable in a good way.

Allira

Millie22

I've just checked and the Duke of Norfolk is supposed to be in his 40's when Anne Boleyn died.

I'm not sure how old Timothy Spall is but he looks much older.

40s was old in those days!

Tim is 67.

He looks much older since he lost so much weight too.

Dammit! Must try harder titch!

You didn't, Aveline. You and I just disagree on this issue, which is fine. You weren't belittling at all.

I never meant any of my tone to belittle anyone especially you Doodledog my Corrie friend.

Allira

Posters are not insulting or sarcastic but they are entitled to offer a different viewpoint for consideration.
Intransigence does not always mean someone is right.

Agreed. But choice of language is also important, as is tone, and belittling those with whom you disagree is not a neutral act.

the principle stands that dramatisations of real characters from history should retain their authenticity

I agree.

Aveline

Henry's physical state developed over time. I noted that he was limping a lot in the recent episode. The men all look so short and fat with those huge wide costume.
As to accuracy of historical ethnicity in this production - it's all been said.

Henry developed horrible leg ulcers due to an injury. He did become enormous by all accounts.

Aveline

Henry's physical state developed over time. I noted that he was limping a lot in the recent episode. The men all look so short and fat with those huge wide costume.
As to accuracy of historical ethnicity in this production - it's all been said.

It has been said over and over, but if a poster doesn’t agree then we repeat and go round in circles.
The only other point regarding accuracy is that we do know what both King Henry and his wives and children and most of the Tudor aristocracy looked like as there are so many portraits of them all.
It isn’t for children but there are lots of adults with no clue about the Tudor period of history, not only recent immigrants to our country either, who may watch this.I haven’t seen it yet as for lack of time and there may well be ‘nothing to see here’ about it but the principle stands that dramatisations of real characters from history should retain their authenticity.

Posters are not insulting or sarcastic but they are entitled to offer a different viewpoint for consideration.
Intransigence does not always mean someone is right.

Henry's physical state developed over time. I noted that he was limping a lot in the recent episode. The men all look so short and fat with those huge wide costume.
As to accuracy of historical ethnicity in this production - it's all been said.

flappergirl I can’t seem to quote your post directly but thank you for replying without insults or sarcasm when disagreeing with me. That’s refreshing these days.

I wasn’t being ‘silly’, and I am not ignorant of Tudor history. I just don’t think an insistence on one aspect of people’s appearance falling into line with a certain view of the world (ie that dark skin confers low status and always has) is either accurate or acceptable. In most cases, however meticulous the research, we don’t know what people looked like, and in any case it doesn’t matter.

Insisting on a particular view of ‘accuracy’ is very likely to result in inaccuracy, and those saying that children will be taught the wrong ‘facts’ are, IMO misguided. This is not a children’s drama for a start. Also, as WWM says, colour is far from being the most important aspect of someone’s appearance, so why shouldn’t children of colour (if any are watching) see people like themselves represented in roles other than servants?

Whenever this subject arises someone clutches at the Nelson Mandela straw. It matters that NM is black (as with the enslaved characters in Roots) because the story is about colour prejudice and injustice towards black people. Racism is not an issue in the story of the Tudors, so it is no more important than insisting on X walking with a limp or Y having missing teeth, or pockmarked skin unless those characteristics play a role in their fate. We don’t know what many of them looked like, and unless it matters to the story (eg in the case of H8’s ulcerated leg) the insistence that dark skin = low status is a modern concept held by those of a particular world view. It is not based on historical accuracy until long after the Tudor period.

Are any of the main characters black? I watched but can’t say I noticed. A quick mental run through suggests not though. I would argue that the fact that Henry was obese and had a putrid leg wound is important to the story, as his temper and lack of sexual prowess matter to the story and to the fate of his wives. There are other theories that could explain why he had no sons who survived to adulthood, and could also explain is irascibility, but they are not yet proven, and anyway would not have been understood back then, so showing the grossly overweight and bad tempered man gives an indication of how his impotence would have been perceived at the time, and gives a motive for any infidelity on the part of his wives. What other characters looked like is far less integral to the story, if it matters at all.