Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

One of the hangups of the Tudor court was the origin of one's family. Even at the height of his power Wolsey was reviled by the old aristocracy for his "low" birth. And we know that Cromwell too came from a humble background. When such men rose to power it evoked the emnity of those who considered temselves "gentlemen". In the play Wolsey himself jokes ironically that Cromwell has come from a lower background than himself. The Tudor courtiers were obsessed with status and title. There are entire scenes devoted to discussion of how men who rise to prominence in public life are torn down with great delight. This is still the case. Just think of the current disgrace of a certain archbishop.

Well I am sure that if there had been black characters at the Tudor court this would have attracted the unwelcome attention of such a status obsessed gathering.

There was another series called "Becoming Elizabeth" in which several black actors popped up. One was cast as "Sir Perdo" and explained away as a Moor from Spain who had converted. However their presence close to the seat of power was not well recieved by the traditional gentry.

Well I am sure that if there had been black characters at the Tudor court this would have attracted the unwelcome attention of such a status obsessed gathering.

But this assumes that black skin = low status.

Yes

Yes, just because we are obsessed (or so it seems, reading this) with the colour of someone's skin does not mean people in the past were so.

Pre the Trans-Atlantic slave trade attitudes to skin colour were probably very different, but 'black' people had to be de-humanised in order to see them as units of commerce, not quite human. I think this is where people get confused about how people of diverse ethnicities were regarded.

We shouldn't transfer our social mores onto the past.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the slave trade either. Just making a point.

I thought episode 2 was a fantastic exposure of how Cromwell is beginning to feel insecure; in his relationship with Henry and also with the various women he inter-acts with. His sense of isolation in the end was tangible and excellently played by Mark Rylance.

It was very good, wasn’t it? The Tudor court was really a nest of vipers.

We have read all the books and seen the previous dramatisations. This one is of course well done but last night I had to keep asking “who is she supposed to be?” My dh was often uncertain and it more time to gather who they were. Would add this was not my favourite book out of the three. Enjoyed Bring Up the Bodies more than the other two.

Lovetopaint but last night I had to keep asking “who is she supposed to be?”

I found it helpful that characters quite often used the person's name when they were talking to them!

I thought episode 2 was a fantastic exposure of how Cromwell is beginning to feel insecure; in his relationship with Henry and also with the various women he inter-acts with. His sense of isolation in the end was tangible and excellently played by Mark Rylance.

Me too, keepingquiet. Mark Rylance's facial expressions can convey so much. He's a wonderful actor.

Have they changed the actress who plays Lady Rochford too? It was a bit confusing when he was talking to her before I realised who she was. She's certainly careless about what she says about Henry, and to Cromwell of all people

Yes, Lady Rochford used to be played by Jessica Raine

No wonder Cromwell has that permanently worried expression on his face.

One wrong word and you're in big trouble...

I felt quite sorry for Cromwell last night even though he's been the instigator of several executions. It became glaringly obvious to him that the knives are ever present around him. Does anyone know what happened to Dorothea after the dissolution of the monasteries?

The Holbein portrait of Norfolk looks very like a familiar actor who's name I can't remember.....

Brilliant touch to have Holbein painting away in the background.

sassenach512

I felt quite sorry for Cromwell last night even though he's been the instigator of several executions. It became glaringly obvious to him that the knives are ever present around him. Does anyone know what happened to Dorothea after the dissolution of the monasteries?

There's evidence that Cromwell paid Dorothy (Hilary Mantel changed it to Dorothea) a pension after the Dissolution but nothing else is known.

I love Holbein's drawings. The people just seem so recognisable somehow. The faces are such that you could see them in any crowd today.

Pittcity

The Holbein portrait of Norfolk looks very like a familiar actor who's name I can't remember.....

Brilliant touch to have Holbein painting away in the background.

I think he looks like Philip Jackson, who played Inspector Japp in Poirot.

He was also in Sherwood and the Good Karma Hospital amongst other programmes.

Thanks Calendargirl, that's just who I was thinking of.

I’m really enjoying this, although I do keep falling asleep part way through and have to rewatch it. That isn’t because it’s dull but because I tend to watch things very late at night! I’ve discovered a wonderful new podcast by the BBC: History Extra. And one episode gives a very simple and concise explanation of how Cromwell fell from grace so fast when he was at the height of his powers. I think there are more episodes about Cromwell, too.

The first episode was compulsive, for me the second dragged somewhat, I will watch again but we all know how it ends so there is less incentive to watch to the end.

David49

The first episode was compulsive, for me the second dragged somewhat, I will watch again but we all know how it ends so there is less incentive to watch to the end.

I couldn’t work out who the nun was.

Calendargirl

Pittcity

The Holbein portrait of Norfolk looks very like a familiar actor who's name I can't remember.....

Brilliant touch to have Holbein painting away in the background.

I think he looks like Philip Jackson, who played Inspector Japp in Poirot.

He was also in Sherwood and the Good Karma Hospital amongst other programmes.

The painting of Norfolk looks like Charles Dance to me.

I think he looks like Ben Fogle

MayBee70

David49

The first episode was compulsive, for me the second dragged somewhat, I will watch again but we all know how it ends so there is less incentive to watch to the end.

I couldn’t work out who the nun was.

Do you mean the actress or the part? She is the daughter of Cardinal Wolsey - Dorothea. Illegitimate I assume?

I must look her up on Google and find out what happened to her. This has piqued my curiosity!

Pittcity

sassenach512

I felt quite sorry for Cromwell last night even though he's been the instigator of several executions. It became glaringly obvious to him that the knives are ever present around him. Does anyone know what happened to Dorothea after the dissolution of the monasteries?

There's evidence that Cromwell paid Dorothy (Hilary Mantel changed it to Dorothea) a pension after the Dissolution but nothing else is known.

Oh. Just seen this must keep up!

I’m absolutely loving this series. The actors are superb. Anyone else think Damien Lewis and Mark Rylance Don’t look any different 10 years on? Amazing, really. 😁