Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

Me again. 😲

From the Radio Times:

“Yes, historical records suggest that Cardinal Wolsey most likely did have a daughter named Dorothy (spelt Dorothea in Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light).

During Wolsey's younger years, the vow of celibacy by Catholic priests had not yet been widely adopted, and so he had a relationship with a woman named Joan Larke, with whom he had two children: Thomas and Dorothy.

Thomas was adopted by the Wynter family and went on to hold various positions in the Church, including Archdeacon of Cornwall and Prebend of Saunderton.

Meanwhile, Dorothy was adopted by John Clancey, who arranged a place for her at Shaftesbury Abbey convent – known for housing daughters of wealthy individuals – where she became a nun until it was dissolved.

The abbey's fate is alluded to in Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light, with Cromwell making assurances to the head of the convent that the property would not face the same fate as many monasteries at that time. That comment aged poorly!

Although there is no evidence to suggest that Cromwell proposed marriage to Dorothy, or even that she should live with him, it is possible that he felt some loyalty to her because of who her father was.

Evidencing this is the fact that Dorothy received a pension from Cromwell after Shaftesbury Abbey was dissolved, which would have helped her to sustain herself in the years ahead – although little more is known about her life.”

The painting of Norfolk looks like Charles Dance to me

Having an off day.

I thoroughly enjoyed episode two. I think the part where Cromwell visited Dorothea is deliberately done to highlight a softer, more human side to him, thus making the eventual ending more sad.

Surely, the main reason that Cromwell asked Dorothea to marry him, was his realisation that he needed to be safely married (or at least betrothed), in order to be able to counter the charge of his hoping to marry Princess Mary. That, in itself, was a beheading offence!

If course there's no evidence that Cromwell had a softer side nor asked Dorothea to marry him! He enabled Henry in his more dastardly acts and was, I'm sure, quite ruthless. The guardian have an interesting view on the series which I tend to agree with.

I think you’re right though Grandmabatty.
Hilary Mantel had a soft spot for him and wove her admiration for him into her story. Yes, it certainly made the ending in her novel poignant. I cried! (Daft when one thinks about it as we know how he fared, but HM’s depiction of his character lent to the poignancy).

On again tonight!

Trump needs to take a lesson from Cromwell, - never be kind or enabling to tyrants - they always come back to bite you.

But this assumes that black skin = low status.

No it doesn't. It means uncertain ancestry.
The Tudor court was full of 'new' men,as were the Tudors themselves, many descended from minor landed gentry, but self-made, as were the Boleyn family. Much despised by the old families, such as the Howards, who could generally claim descent from younger sons of distant royalty. Many hours were spent tracing relationships, as was common until almost the present day. Now it is wealth rather than rank. Look at the unkind remarks about the 'Wisteria sisters.'

Interesting to note Jane Seymour's apparently Indian sister in the latest episode.

Just settling down on the sofa to enjoy episode 3. 📺

I did wonder who the woman was talking to Cromwell about marriage and then realised she was supposed to be Jane Seymour's sister 🤔

Isn’t the acoustic guitar just perfect and used to great effect?

I’ve just watched ‘Defiance’. (Ep.3)
Wonderful.

The machinations within the Court must have been so anxiety inducing! Pacts made between factions then discarded when not advantageous.

Honestly Cromwell. Prostrate yourself before Henry. Tell him you are not in good health and ask for his blessing in your request for an early retirement. Give him some very expensive gifts and retire yourself to a country house.

I would’ve.
But then you didn’t (I know).

I’m a devout coward. I’d have been looking for a feasible way out!

Very good episode again last night. That description of John Bellowe 's horrific death!

I'm reading Rory Stewart's book about his time in Parliament and it all sounds very like the machinations going on in Wolf Hall but without the beheadings etc

So less scary Aveline! You’d literally be frightened for your life in Tudor times wouldn’t you?

Oh yes Clawdy how utterly gruesome. I imagine. HM researched her subject matter forensically. That’s what made her novels so engrossing. The little snippets of fact weaved into the storyline.

If I was living in Tudor times I'd avoid the court if I possibly could.

That's a fair point, easybee.

I’m a devout coward. I’d have been looking for a feasible way out!

😅😅 Me too. I would have been grovelling very hard .... and probably throwing you to the dogs if that's what was required to keep away from the scaffold 😅

I had a friend from a well-off family who always used think it would have been romantic to have been part of a Tudor family. My other friend and I used to say 'Well we wouldn't have seen a silk dress, we would have been up to our knees in mud on the farm or possibly been the village barmaid' ... if we were lucky.

Did anyone else find tonight’s episode a hard watch, as in quite confusing?
I really needed to concentrate but enjoyed it all the same.

mamaa

Did anyone else find tonight’s episode a hard watch, as in quite confusing?
I really needed to concentrate but enjoyed it all the same.

I can never follow plots of any kind so this is no exception. There was a very informative documentary on catchup the other night; I tend to have to watch things like that to understand what is going on. I was getting confused about his daughter in law and now his newly discovered daughter! Along with Wolseys daughter the other week. Henry’s leg healed very quickly, didn’t it! Still loving it, though. Who’s the man in prison who tried to kill himself?

I'm finding it quite depressing - just as I did the book - because you can feel the way everything is unravelling and Cromwell is beginning to lose control of events. But what a change it is to sit in silence for a few moments, just watching someone who is also sitting in silence. So different from the constant shouting that seems to constitute "Drama" today! Feeling very smug today because Mark Rylance has liked a comment I made on Facebook!

I don't know what to make of Mark Rylance's take on Cromwell. Was he really so taciturn in real life? I realise Mark is a brilliant actor but I find myself wanting to give Cromwell a shake at times.

I also found last night's episode a bit confusing. I had to look up Rafe who was Thomas's secretary and lost 10 minutes or so reading about him. He lived to be 79 and had 7 children which is really old for Tudor times.

I found it a hard watch purely and simply because he can feel he’s approaching the end game, especially now that Gardiner is back at court. There was a point last night where you could see all his frailties written in his eyes. Mark Rylance is an exceptional actor.