Channel 4 9pm Keir Starmer. where did it all go wrong?

Iam64

I share Cossy’s view on where things are with KS and the Labour Party. DAR summarises it.
Doodledog is spot on about the terms bandied about , meaningless and designed to stifle debate.

The left in the party always said they’d support Starmer to win the election, then mobilise to get a new leader. He’s still there. His comms and willingness to properly engage abd negotiate with back benchers has caused real problems - that can’t be denied. I believe he shouldn’t have blocked Andy Burnham.
Despite this we have a better govt than in a long time. Starmer excellent on international affairs

👍👍👏👏

He won’t be there for longer than another year.

Do you genuinely not know what those expressions mean, or simply dislike them?
I don’t think they mean anything, if not used literally. Your interpretation may well be different from mine, and mine from someone else’s. It’s not about disliking the expressions themselves, but the way people are fed them by the media and repeat them, as though they are making a political point, when in fact they are saying nothing meaningful.

Did you genuinely misunderstand my point, or do you just dislike it?

My question was a genuine one, I see your point just fine but those expressions do mean something which most people understand.

What a loaded programme title ... balanced journalism? ... I think not.

Oreo

My question was a genuine one, I see your point just fine but those expressions do mean something which most people understand.

I’m not sure you have understood though. Toast is grilled bread. Off a cliff is just what it says, and under a bus is the chassis (probably).

As metaphors they mean different things to different people. My point was that most don’t understand them in the same way, which is my objection. ‘The economy has fallen off a cliff’ doesn’t mean a thing. It is a vague statement that disapproves of ‘something’, but it doesn’t mean anything that can be discussed. Is it talking about inflation? GDP? The pound against the dollar? To you it might be one, and to me another.

Just like ‘the NHS is on its knees’ - vague, critical but meaningless.

Luckygirl3

What a loaded programme title ... balanced journalism? ... I think not.

Agreed Luckygirl!

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

What about the meaningless expressions “smash the gangs” and “stop the boats”?

Doodledog

What does being 'toast' mean?

toast is slang for ruined

Primrose Stop The Boats and Smash The Gangs are also totally meaningless expressions UNLESS the why and how is also outlined!

Doodledog

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Fallen on a cliff means failed.

Thrown under a bus means his colleages have betrayed him

NHS on its knees means it is not strong enough to continue operating unless it gets some sort of bail.out / on verge of collapse.

Thanks Macaydia for restoring my sense of sanity😄I knew that most people understand exactly what those expressions meant.
And understand them in the same way too.

He has totally changed the Labour Party, moving it to the right.
He lied to become Labour leader
He lied to become PM
He said if you don't like what the Labour Party is now, leave
He has allowed US bombers to use RAF Fairford without discussing it in Parliament
"Starmer’s interview on LBC a few days earlier, in which he said Israel “has the right” to withhold power and water from Gaza"
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/20/labour-deeply-divided-over-starmers-line-on-israel-hamas-war

I agree with Oreo that if Labour want to win the next election (not just Tories lose it as in 2024), he will be replaced

Primrose53

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

What about the meaningless expressions “smash the gangs” and “stop the boats”?

What about them? If you have an opinion, why not share it?

Macaydia

Doodledog

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Fallen on a cliff means failed.

Thrown under a bus means his colleages have betrayed him

So why not say 'failed' and 'betrayed by his colleagues'? That would be speaking English, not trotting out soundbites.

Macaydia

NHS on its knees means it is not strong enough to continue operating unless it gets some sort of bail.out / on verge of collapse.

But that is not what 'on its knees' means . Someone scrubbing a floor could be on his knees, as could someone praying. On its knees means being in a kneeling position - it has nothing to do with being not strong enough to continue without a bailout. Nothing. The phrase is a metaphor (which I fully understand) but my point, for the umpteenth time, is that it is unoriginal and simply repeated by those who have read or heard it, and it leaves a lot of scope for interpretation. It is not a precise (or even a nuanced) term. It is meaningless in the context of the NHS, and the use of such terms reduces the chances of people discussing the topic with precision or nuance, and allows politicians and journalists to waffle on and say nothing much.

I thought you said upthread that you understood my ;point Oreo. Was that not the case?

Yes, but it was your point not mine, which you’re at liberty to hold.

Chardy

He has totally changed the Labour Party, moving it to the right.
He lied to become Labour leader
He lied to become PM
He said if you don't like what the Labour Party is now, leave
He has allowed US bombers to use RAF Fairford without discussing it in Parliament
"Starmer’s interview on LBC a few days earlier, in which he said Israel “has the right” to withhold power and water from Gaza"
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/20/labour-deeply-divided-over-starmers-line-on-israel-hamas-war

I agree with Oreo that if Labour want to win the next election (not just Tories lose it as in 2024), he will be replaced

Starmer’s view, as you’ve put it, was over two years ago, I think you’ll find his views have changed dramatically given the events between Israel and Gaza, also he wasn’t PM at that time either. Honestly, if it wasn’t so tragic it would be funny, Starmer has been accused of both alienating Muslims and supporting Muslims, which is it? It cannot be both!

In terms of what’s happening in Iran, Starmer only needs to consult parliament if we attack, the UK’s stance still is defence, not attack.

What and how did Starmer lie? About both the leadership and the GE? We vote for the party in the UK not the person!

Oreo

Yes, but it was your point not mine, which you’re at liberty to hold.

I'm not sure of your point now.

You (as usual) questioned my post, and I replied with full explanation of the point I was making. You replied to say that you fully understood the point (so were.presumably questioning for the 'fun' of it) but in a subsequent post have shown that no, you really didn't understand as you have missed the point of my post entirely.

Never mind. It is clear that others know what I meant, so I am reassured that the point was made. Of course you re at liberty to disagree, but please do so honestly? If you don't understand, I am happy to reword, but if you just disagree, then why not make a point of your own to show why?

Channel 4 seem to have taken on a rather right wing perspective recently.

MayBee70

Channel 4 seem to have taken on a rather right wing perspective recently.

I think media tends to jump on bandwagons! Starmer is clearly not popular nor liked by many people, so using a title as they did will draw in viewers.

I neither like nor dislike Starmer, I don’t know him, unlike many politicians he plays his cards close to his chest in particular around his private life.

However, currently I am happy to happy him as our PM and I think he’s shown himself to be a calm, safe pair of hands.

He’s not right wing, he’s a centralist, which was what the LP thought they needed after disastrous GEs fought by Corbyn.

I’m still awaiting a response to the “lies” he’s told.

What will happen in the future? We can speculate, but I don’t wish to see the in/out PM’s and cabinet members of our last govt,. It is very unsettling and destabilising to our economy and points to party in-fighting, which no party should desire.

Jennerdysphoria

Agree there does seem to be a campaign orchestrating hate for Starmer.

I agree - by the media. Probably the best option right now and certainly better than the “Reformed” Tories led by Nigel Farage who would have us in a war by now as well as us all paying for very expensive medical insurance

I just watched the programme on catch up. Well I am no fan of Starmer but I must agree with those who have said it was very unbalanced journalism.

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

Those words are being drip-fed to us, the general public. By the media, on social media, ? by Reform's chatbots.

The crisis that I'm chronically worried about is climate change. But that is one "crisis" that this campaign to get everyone well-worried, never mentions.