Long Lost Family. The future for IVF kids?

Galaxy

Well yes but it is also important to acknowledge the impact an absent father ( however this occurs) has on children, especially it seems boys.

I think the outcome can be entirely different when there is a tight knit extended family support group for boys without a father.

However, there are definitely a percentage of fatherless boys who grow up in urban cities drawn into gang culture, older youths who possibly replace the father figure mentor, not in a good way. Add to that a lack of male teachers in a feminised education system it can leave "some" boys pretty rudderless. Yesteryear was quite different if we go back to our fathers' times they were pretty much all war veterans or doing some sort of role in the war effort. Plus society generally was more disciplined, it wouldn't be unknown for boys to get a clip round the ear, or worse, from those in authority. In short there was more reigning in. I know there would have been an element of gang culture/underworld activities but not as maybe prolific as it is today and lets not forget there are a myriad of pernicious influences that can affect the young and susceptible that weren't around in previous times.

I dont actually have any strong views on IVF, but the thread moved on to families with a number of different fathers and I dont want to pretend that works in terms of outcomes for children. Dont get me started on surrogacy though!

Galaxy

It is not a sweeping statement, all sorts of things that adults do impact on children, including many things I have done myself. The impact of absent fathers is clear I am afraid in the statistics in terms of outcomes for children. I have no idea what the studies show on same sex parenting cossy, I remember interesting studies that show the impact of the death of a father has very different outcomes to an absent father, so I suspect that may be a different scenario. As I have mentioned recently I had relationships with women in my past and guess what women who are attracted to other women hold all sorts of different views on this subject.
One of the highest risk factors in terms of child safety is the introduction of a step parents ( so families with numerous different fathers increase this risk) this isnt saying families cant function or do well in all sorts of circumstances but that certain circumstances generally produce different outcomes for children. Again those who experience the worst outcomes in these scenarios are those living in poverty, by cheering it on the middle class ensure those families have worse outcomes than themselves.

I think a succession of different father figures, “uncles” has a detrimental effect on both male and female children.

I think an abusive father can have a terrible effect on male and female children.

I think an absent father can have an effect on both male and female children.

In my own particular situation, although my son’s father was completely absent, my own father was a wonderful role model, mostly my DS was surrounded by very loving women.

Whilst I completely accept your experiences and research does show in many families, particularly those with deprived backgrounds, the absence of a great male role model may have a debating effect on any child, in particular males.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by

“ Again those who experience the worst outcomes in these scenarios are those living in poverty, by cheering it on the middle class ensure those families have worse outcomes than themselves.”?

Who and why would any of us, middle class or not, “be cheering it on”, whatever “it” is?

I would add my Jamaican friend mentioned in my first post, moved her and her young son out into rural Hampshire from south London when she split with her husband. He proved to be somewhat useless in the way he played a minimal role in their child's life and pretty much left her go get on with it. Circumstances and environment can play their part, she knew the dangers there could be for a black boy staying where she was.

It isnt particular to this thread, but it is a general response, as soon as people talk about the issues presented by absent fathers it is downplayed or ignored in favour of 'choice'.
I have no strong feelings on ivf but I would be interested in hearing from the adult children of that situation - we have seen in the past the impact political decisions can have on children, decisions which seemed rational and straightforward at the times.

DD’s twins were conceived using sperm from the Danish sperm bank. They have known about this from a very early age and seem to have accepted it quite naturally. The Danish system is very different from the UK. DD had full medical history of father and his parents. She has copies of a photo of him as a toddler and also of a letter written to any prospective children. At sixteen (or maybe eighteen I can’t remember),they may contact him. His sperm is only allowed to be used for, I think, ten families. I think this is a better way.

Galaxy

It isnt particular to this thread, but it is a general response, as soon as people talk about the issues presented by absent fathers it is downplayed or ignored in favour of 'choice'.
I have no strong feelings on ivf but I would be interested in hearing from the adult children of that situation - we have seen in the past the impact political decisions can have on children, decisions which seemed rational and straightforward at the times.

I have no experience, at the moment, of adult children conceived via IVF. The oldest child I’m aware of is 13, he and his younger brother were conceived in a same sex relationship (female)

Same donor used for both brothers, and egg from each mother.

The boys seem, on the surface, to be settled and stable.

One mother owns and runs a dance school, which our DGS has attended for many years, and up until two years ago lived next door to this family and spent time with playing with them both when much younger.

Both the boys in this family attend most dance classes at Mum’s school and the older one, whom I’ve seen in two dance-school shows, is very talented and has been in two West End theatre shows.

So cannot comment on how adult children might be, or how he and his brother will turn out, though so far, so good. Two very confident and self assured boys, with impeccable manners and lovely mothers.

Nandalot

DD’s twins were conceived using sperm from the Danish sperm bank. They have known about this from a very early age and seem to have accepted it quite naturally. The Danish system is very different from the UK. DD had full medical history of father and his parents. She has copies of a photo of him as a toddler and also of a letter written to any prospective children. At sixteen (or maybe eighteen I can’t remember),they may contact him. His sperm is only allowed to be used for, I think, ten families. I think this is a better way.

Photographs aside, and the letter, The London Sperm Bank, (used by DD/DiL), does much of things you mention, including the limit of 10 families.

I really do like extra things though offered by The Danish sperm bank.

Also;

“Legal and Contact Provisions in the UK

No Anonymity: Completely anonymous sperm donation is illegal in the UK for any donations made after April 1, 2005.

All donors through the London Sperm Bank register with the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) with identifying information.

Access at Age 18: Once a person reaches 18, they can apply to the HFEA to obtain the genetic father's identifying information, including their name, date of birth, and last known address, enabling them to make contact.”

We are looking forward to the birth of a grandchild in March, conceived by IVF due to genetic issues on the father’s side. They were very lucky as this was the second attempt. We are just happy for them as they have been through so much in order to conceive.
I do believe that boys need a good male role model in their lives albeit a father, uncle, grandad, teacher, youth worker, sports leader. Many of my friends think the same, especially those of us who were in the teaching profession.

I think the impact on children not having a father cannot be dismissed just because you choose to, same with a mother being absent.

I remember many years ago there was a Dr who was extremely proud of the fact he had been a sperm donor over 50 times. A few years later he found out he had a genetic disease. Maybe screening is far better nowadays but it was not great then

my issues is -a) what are the chances of siblings (unaware of the sperm donor) became romantically involved? b) how would those kids know of any potential health problems?

Well said. My twins were conceived just before I started IVF.
The heart ache of wanting children can be very damaging.
I would always have told them when I thought them old enough.
Keeping secrets is a recipe for disaster.
I’ve no idea what the protocol is re donor identity.
They would have been much loved either way.

Not knowing the full medical history of yourself or a relative can be worrying. I hadn’t given this a thought until my DIL’s sister sadly died of ovarian cancer in her forties. My DIL was worried as this type of cancer can have a genetic link.
Her mother was adopted as a baby, knew nothing about her own mother and had her ovaries removed in her late 30s when she had a hysterectomy.
Thankfully the GP took my DILs concerns seriously - she was referred for genetic counselling who were able to check with the hospital on the type of ovarian cancer her sister had died of.

David49

IVF is just oneway of getting pregnant, many whether they are single or married just choose a casual boyfriend have a baby, then the same for the second or third baby. All these children are just told mothers does not know who the father is, end of conversation, easy to explain, got drunk one night, holiday romance came home pregnant. There are a great many children don't know who their father is, it with formal IVF the donor has been given anonymity and that must be respected

Now we have DNA on ancestry sites it exposes a lot of past dalliances in past generations, now with IVF donors will easily be revealed

In UK, IVF donors of eggs, sperm and embryos, in registered fertility clinics, have not been anonymous since 2005.

Any resulting child has the right to know certain details of their biological parent , at the age of 16. At the age of 18, they can obtain the BP's name and may choose to trace them.

The Human Fertiliation @ Embryology Authority maintains a database of all legal donations since 1991, with information which is available to donor-conceived people and their parents/carers.

They also keep a register of earlier donors who have since volunteered to forgo (previous) anonymity.

www.hfea.gov.uk/donation/finding-out-about-your-donor/

Cannot understand how a doctor donating 50 times wasn't struck off. I pity the children, they are the victims.

Cossy

Galaxy

Well yes but it is also important to acknowledge the impact an absent father ( however this occurs) has on children, especially it seems boys.

So, are you suggesting two female parents will not be able to parent a male child fully?

If that wasn’t so insulting, it would be hilarious!

Yes, I’m very well aware that in some cases a lack of good male role models can sometimes be detriment to boys (actually girls too, but for different reasons)

How on earth do you think Mums managed to parent young boys during WW1 and WW2? I’m not aware that we had entire generations of feral boys?

Also, I brought up my son for the first 9 years of his life alone, just the two of us living together.

I worked full time so he had female Nannies/childminders, then when he started full time in a Montessori pre school (run by women), he was collected from school and looked after at home, by au pairs, til I got in from work.

Its not about the parents, Cossy.

Its about a profound sense of physical identification a boy feels for the adult male whose genes he shares.

My father died when I and my sister were small children and my brother was a baby.

Our mum had no male role models and as my brother grew bigger and his behaviour seemed to be a problem she thought it best to send him to an all boys boarding school.

Unfortunately he wasn't happy there and ran away more than once.

In recent years he's discovered that boys he knew suffered abuse. He says he didn't.

Despite the sad circumstances he survived and grew into a fine man who had a happy career as a teacher - not at an all boys boarding school- and is now retired, a loving dad and grandad and a dear brother. So happy ending luckily.

Maybe love conquers all?

“It’s about a profound sense of physical identification a boy feels for the adult male whose genes he shares.”

Perhaps not all male children feel like this?

I’ve always had a very open and honest relationship with my son, who’s now 40.

He’s never met his biological father, and in his teens for a couple of years expressed a desire to meet with him. I supplied him with many details which would allowed him to find him, in the end he chose not too.

He had a very close and loving relationship with my father, despite there being no genetic link, as I was rooted by him.

DS is a very happy, laid-back, caring and stable man, with a large circle of friends, a lovely girlfriend, two cats and a puppy.

Hear, hear.

It’s inevitable we all reflect on our personal experiences an for some of us the research is important
FWIW my personal and professional experience have been children, later adults, have the need, the desire to know as much as possible about their genetic parents and extended family
I’ve always been uneasy a bout sperm diners. We began to realise adoptive children had the right, the need to know about their birth parents and family of origin. Life story work improved . Who ever thought the anonymounity of sperm diners was more important than the welfare of the chikdren whose lives they helped create ? It feels like state sponsored approval of nonsense of responsibility to me

It is so different now. They didn’t have IVF when I was young but they did have a lot more adoption and I always used to feel so sorry for the birth mothers. Including one of my Aunties who developed a lifelong mental illness after they took her baby away. In and out of what they called mental hospitals, so cruel.

I wonder whether IVF fathers are kept on record somewhere? Especially in this digital age, it seems a simple way of letting children find out who their biological parents are. Any other approach seems cruel to the children. Also, if an IVF donor sires two or more children with different mothers, there's a danger that half-siblings might eventually marry. And what happens if an IVF daughter takes up with a man old enough to be her father? This thread certainly gives us a lot to think about.

I'm inclined to agree with Iam, whether we like it or not genetic make up plays a pivotal role in who we are. I've been watching some of the previous "7ups" with all this in mind, an interview with troubled Neil resonated. Around age 35, he said that he wouldn't have children because any child of his could inherit the troubled aspect of his disposition. We are all a composite of many inherited characteristics, sometimes hostages to genetic material that has been passed down a generation or two. . Anyone who has immersed themselves in genealogy and found enough data to flesh out information from people in their tree, might sometimes see connections between facts they have garnered on those people and correlations in looks, medical conditions, character traits and how those can manifest down the generations. Everyone is different of course as to how they might want to know about all of that, for some it may become a burning desire to others of no interest. A longing to research into our roots generally comes with the passage of time, it's probably not going to be very evident in a young child. Children rarely ponder on the whys and wherefores of how they came to exist beyond the simple biological explanation. More likely as the individual reaches later life. I'd echo Iam too as to sperm donors, particularly the anonymity surrounding that, it's a huge step into the unknown. I suppose it could be likened to adoption in many ways. We have friends who adopted two boys as babies, they enjoyed a very happy childhood and then one of them went seriously off the rails, had a psychotic episode in his teen years, triggered by drugs and has had somewhat of a troubled life ever since. They, the parents found out that Social Services had a very thick file on his mother with vital facts that were withheld from them. It became very important to their son to find out as much information as possible, for him to try and understand what he could attribute in his own behaviour to those of his biological parents. He hit a brick wall as far as his unknown father was concerned and that made him quite angry at the time. All in all for some it will never be enough to not know about the 50% of their DNA that they could deem has been airbrushed out. I've seen interviews with those created by anonymous donor sperm, as young adults, who appeared very angry about the Brave New World rationale that went into their creation.

Apologies for not proofreading reading before reading before posting earlier.
The experience of TerriBull’s friends confirms the importance of children and their parents/carers knowing as much as possible about the children’s history including relevant medical background.
Bringing up children is a joy and can be really challenging. Genetics does influence health so ignoring its contribution to personality is imo a mistake.
Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should