In my day things were done in order.

When I watched the series on television on adoptive parents and children (sorry, I can't remember the title of the programme) I was really upset that very little mention was made of the parents who had brought these children up as their own. As em said - the whole focus was on the birth parents and the children. My DH was adopted soon after birth and he had no desire to trace his birth mother as he thought of his adoptive mother as the most important person in his life.
Having had two children of m own I cannot imagine the trauma and heartbreak of having to give your baby up soon after birth. 40/50/60 years ago it just wasn't acceptable to have a baby out of wedlock.
On the other hand - I believe that things have now swung too far in the opposite direction and many children are now being brought up in totally unsuitable situations with single mothers and no paternal influence at all.
Yes em - an adoption thread would be interesting - over to you!

Message deleted by Gransnet.

I wonder if more children nowadays than in the past grow up without paternal influence? In the past there were more orphans, proportional to the whole population, than there are now, simply because people don't have as many children on average, fewer mothers tragically die in childbirth and fewer fathers die young from disease or work related accidents.

Now that it is not considered wrong to be a single parent, I wonder if we are reverting to a more 'natural' arrangement of single mothers? There were always absent fathers and there always will be. It's the nature of the beast! I say that in a purely biological frame of mind, not making any kind of moral judgment at all.

The problems arise when young, inexperienced, single mothers can't get the support they need from older women.

em I don't think other women (probably men too) who think seriously about the subject of adoption would automatically classify adoptive parents as "baddies". I have several well-balanced friends who were adopted at birth who value and love their adoptive parents and now have caring and loving families of their own. Some have been interested in tracing their birth mothers, some not. I think the reason that there is a lot of sympathetic focus on mothers who "gave their children up for adoption" is that, in the past, they were pressurised into doing so, rather than making a free decision. In other words, giving was not involved. There is something quite terrible about forcing a mere girl to go through with a pregnancy and birth and then whisking her child away from her immediately. Adoptive parents were not, as a rule, responsible for this.

Point taken em there is always more than one angle to any topic. However I was following the thread of the consequences of not conforming to the norms of courtship and marraige in my day and not making a comment on adoption.

em. I think you might have a fair point. Granted there were, and probably still are some very unfortunate cases of girls being bullied and forced into making choices about giving up babies but I think that the pendulum might have swung too far the other way. Its a shame that more thought does not go into seeing it as a valuable choice when someone is faced with a pregnancy they had not planned and a child they might not be able to offer all that they could too. The trouble is so much of society is geared up to anyone having children and the inference is that being the 'natural' parent is by far the best choice WHATEVER. It is an emotive subject and I have no idea what I would have done if I had had to make such a choice. I did have some early problems though, my first husband left me heavily pregnant and I had no idea how I was going to support my daughter. However, with my Mum's help and my stubborness I managed and then met a lovely man who took us both on and then offically adopted my child (a right performance - took 2 years just to adopt my own child- but thats another story). He has been a wonderful father to her. So you can see I do have some insight. And yes, it breaks my heart when I hear of children and babies who are brought up in unloving or abusive homes when there are people out there who have so much to offer.

Beautifully expressed absentgrana.

In my family, it has been the last 2-3 generations that have conformed to OP's timeline, for the following reasons (in no order):

Good, easily available contraception
Better health care
Facilities for women escaping abusive situations
Enough money (not necessary for making good choices, but it makes it easier)
Good education

Back in the thread where we talked about listening to the "older generation" I wrote that in my family, they all talked to you and told you not only about their childhoods, but their grandparents' lives as well.
So I know what they had to go through, the mistakes they made, and how they campaigned for the things that enabled us to benefit.

harrigran - no unmarried mothers in your family? That's impressive! My family more than makes up for it. We must have your share.

em, I've never, ever, been aware of a feeling that adoptive parents were "baddies". On the contrary, from what I've read and from discussions I've had over many, many years, I feel that adoptive parents are respected for the struggles and emotional turmoil they have to go through before, if they are fortunate, being able to love and cherish a child whose life would otherwise not have been what its birth mother wanted it to have.

I only know one mother who gave up her baby for adoption, so my first-hand experience is limited. In the 60s a friend was pregnant, deserted by her fiance, rejected by her parents - "what will the neighbours say?" - and she had to spend the last months of the pregnancy in a grim home for unmarried mothers.
At 6 weeks the baby went to its new family as, in those days, there was no way she could support it properly without the support of her family - hard to imagine now - and to this day she is grateful to that couple. What kept her going through that terrible, terrible time, and since, was the thought that her little one was with parents who could do what she desperately wanted to but knew she could not. They have all met now, in the last 5 years, and she is still grateful to that couple.

Remember, TV, radio and the press don't have tell the truth - they select what they think will get attention and omit a great deal, and the truth often suffers.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who adopt, Em, and I do hope that we Gransnetters can help change your perception of how others see you.

I salute you!

Twobabes I did not actually finish the posting about unmarried mothers because the phone rang and I pressed post. What I would have gone on to say was that not in my family but my DH's niece is single and by all accounts she is lucky to be away from this man, a horrible, abusive person. She was 40 when she got pregnant so was not a teenager.

Moving on a generation from the time we adopted our 2 daughters in the 70's. DD1 announced (age 20) that she was pregnant and added 'I'm assuming that we won't be discussing anything other than keeping this baby!' Of course we didn't and she moved back home with me and GS (aged 10). She dreaded telling my mother but Mum's response was to start looking out knitting patterns so that she could start a shawl for her first GGC! Mum passed on the news to other family members, adding 'What's done is done so let's look forward to a new baby!' Only one family member was awkward, saying 'What's done can always be undone'. I supported my daughter wholeheartedly but had to say I'd find termination hard to deal with. When she later traced her own birth mum, we found out that DD1 was the result of a 2nd pregnancy and the 1st had ended in termination - a decision that came to be much regretted. Birth mum went on to marry and have several more children. Some views expressed here are understandable and make me think I've come over as a bit over-sensitive by saying that adoptive parents have at times been portrayed as predatory but I have seen/heard comments and programmes which have made me feel as if that is a real perception and that once the 'real' parents are traced then the adoptive parents have no further relevance. I have not had this experience,but believe that there are some people who do think so. Lastly, I have to say that I don't feel it's appropriate to thank adoptive parents for what they do, as it is a huge privilege to be entrusted with such a precious gift.
Just an afterthought - I hope KateDaring52's post was not deleted because anyone was upset by anything said here.

Katedaring52's post looked irrelevant and highly dubious. GN clearly thought so too.

You're bound to be sensitive, em. I think I would be in your position. People can and do say things before they've really thought about an issue. I knew a lot of adopted children when I was of primary school age, including two entire families of five and seven adopted children respectively. Several other familes we knew who already had children, also adopted a child. My feeling then was how lucky they were to have the adoptive parents they had.

em, if only more children and babies could be adopted into loving homes these days, I'm sure there wouldn't be the same horror stories that we hear about now. My cousin's wife was adopted, along with her brother, and she has never had any wish to try to find her birth mother, though her brother did find the mother, and the outcome from that for him wasn't very good, I don't think - perhaps he'd built up a picture of this person and was disappointed, I don't know. The life they had with their adoptive parents was a safe and secure one. She was closer to her adoptive father, than her adoptive mother, but that happens in many 'birth' families. I wasn't particularly close to my own mother, but that was due to her own issues, I think. Right back along the line, my mother was illegitimate, as was her mother, and her grandmother (who actually brought her up), etc. My mother didn't find out until she was about to marry my father that her eldest sister was actually her mother, who had given birth to her at the age of 15 in 1924. None of the family ever discussed this with her, and I really do believe that this affected my mother's ability to become close to me, an only child. Lost the thread a bit with this, but real parental love does not have to come from blood parents. Gratitude and love aren't the same, either. Unconditional love is what is given out by loving parents - blood or not.

This thread is very relevant to a problem in my family that I am very worried but unable to anything about. When my son married my lovely DIL she already had a two yr old. The father had walked when she said she was pregnant. They have legally changed GC name and as far as GC is concerned my son is the father, which of course in any real sense of the word he is. They have other children now and are a big happy family. I have spoken gently to my son but he can't see that there might be a problem but from past experience of another family member I can. I know I can't interfere but what may happen in the future is lurking in the back of my mind all the time. I have a good relationship with GC and am trying to make a link so that if one day GC turns away from his parents GC may turn to me, I can't think of anything else to do.

Zeprine, I was dumped when pregnant (and married, nearly 30 years ago). I met a lovely man who took on the responsibilities of being a loving Dad to my firstborn. We went through step-child adoption to make her future secure because the ex went, never to return. The legal side is jolly complicated and I'm sure its all changed now but we were told that you cant change a child's name without the birth father's permission. Sounds like you need some legal advise. There was a prog on TV about wills a few months ago that touched on this very subject...the advise was that everyone needs to talk and if there is no adoption then clear legal guardians need to be appointed should the worse happen. My fear, until the adoption went through, was that the 'natural' father might reappear if something happened to me or even his family might interfere. He never did, despite trying to track him down at the time of the adoption (his permission was needed but in the end his mother signed the documents) It is all so very emotive and you are going on everything second hand. If your GC has been told the simple truth without any bitterness and has a good relationship with his 'Dad' there is nothing to say that part of it could go wrong. My own daughter always knew as much as I felt she could cope with and we talked about making contact whenever she expressed an interest. These occassions grew less as she got older and she now feels that she has absolutely no need to know him.

Zephrine: there are a lot of nice books that deal with step-parents and different kinds of families and as your dear GC grows up, she may get to read them and learn that families come about in lots of ways.

It is unclear from your post as to whether they have simply changed her name, or if your son has legally taken parental responsibility. If he is her "real" father then he must make sure this is in place - otherwise legally he cannot give consent for medical procedures, school outings & the like. This can be done without the consent of the birth father and is a different matter entirely from adoption.
direct.gov.uk or http://www.familyandparenting.org provide information.

When I was doing my ancestry research I discovered that my paternal grandfather was born to an unmarried mother in 1886.He was brought up by her parents as one of their own, as they had a large family and their youngest child was only two years old.
His mother seemed to have dissapeared from the records after that, but I posted the topic on the ancestry thread on GN.I got alot of help and found out my GGM worked in various jobs as a nurse and housekeeper and finally married a farmer.My grandfather carried on living with his grandparents until he married.
I was brought up to believe it was wrong to have sex before marriage.My sister ''got into trouble'' as it was then called at the age of 18 in the sixties.My parents forced her to have the baby adopted as her boyfriend had dumped her.She later married and had two daughters, and now ironically her grandaughter has become a single mother but is keeping her baby, although no longer in a realationship with the father.

I was brought up to believe sex before marriage was wrong pinkprincess and was left in no doubt as to what would happen if I brought shame on the family. I was not into chasing boys anyway, in fact still playing with dolls at 14.
I know it is a very old fashioned attitude but if there was still a stigma about unmarried mothers perhaps it would make girls without support think twice.
I was determined to qualify as a nurse and did not want anything to upset those plans, luckily the boy I chose to marry respected my decision and thus he has been my only partner.
I know young people would think I was straight out of the ark but we did get respect.

It takes two minutes of overwhelming, nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw, sexual urge, and - wham! - you've got a baby.

Don't condemn.

And don't be bloody holier than thou.

Places (like the US) where many religious groups discourage sex education, have higher (repeat HIGHER) rates of teenage pregnancy than more liberal places who accept that human beings like having sex and it's not a sin and there are ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Case rested. Stigma never did anyone any good and always does masses of harm. My conclusion? It's an unhelpful tool.

What I'm trying to say is that providing good sex education and free contraceptives has repeatedly been shown to be more effective in preventing unwanted pregnancies than any other method. If the plan is to reduce unwanted pregnancies, then it seems a sensible way to go.

Personally I find the best oral contraceptive is NO

Baggy and Jangly I'm with you both all the way on this one. Most of us GNs must have been brought up to believe that sex before marriage was wrong - that's the way things were then - I was born in 47. We knew the awful consequences but many of us got swept away in the heat of the moment and just kept our fingers crossed - it was fun! The pill made things safer if you could get it but that wasn't easy (and we sometimes forgot to take it). As for condoms, it was up to the lads to sort that out and many were too shy to buy them or use them. Thank goodness for modern sex education and widely available contraception.

harrigran - do you have a low libido?

Or perhaps a little repressed?

I was brought up to believe that sex before marriage was wrong,and I got caught up in the heat of the moment, and wham bam little H was born when I was 20. We married when I was seven months pregnant, and it lurched on sometimes good sometimes bad, for the next thirty four years,with two more babies. Did I make a mistake, certainly, but I don't regret a thing,I wouldn't be without my darling first daughter,or indeed any of them , for anything. Life is a series of choices and decisions and impulses, and we have to deal with them as we go along. I don't judge anyone for the way they lead their life, they are no worse or less human than me.