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We have some very frail, very elderly neighbours who we’ve known for many years - a lovely and formerly glamorous couple, so it’s doubly sad to see them like this.
Over recent years we’ve told them repeatedly to ring us if they need any help, but lately it’s become more frequent. He has a lot of mobility difficulties now and falling for both of them has become more frequent.
Both are unable to help the other get up, so we’ve been called on twice very recently to help, with that and other things. Before anyone says it, if there’s any question that they’re hurt we call an ambulance but most often it’s not the case, so since they’re both very light, dh has always been able to manage.
Now of course there the virus worry about seeing them - not so much from them, since they don’t go out, but because they regularly have carers in. Dh went yesterday (with gloves and mask) to help after another fall, but because the wife evidently feels bad about asking us (as she’s said so many times) she also called on another neighbour who has rarely helped before, to assist.
That neighbour, however, asked dh to come and help.
After the necessary help had been given, one of the couple phoned their son, who lives not too far away and does visit fairly often.
This other neighbour insisted on speaking to him, and right in front of the elderly couple told him in very forthright tones that it was high time they were both in a home. She then said the same to the couple, in similarly blunt tones. (All related to me later by dh.)
Should add that both have their marbles intact, and the son has often urged them to move a lot closer to him, but they have never wanted to. And TBH given their ages and states of health, I can’t see how it’d be managed now, not to mention that such a change and general disruption would probably be the beginning of the end for them. I don’t think an actual care home has ever been suggested, though.
I really did think the neighbour was right out of order to say such a thing in front of - and directly to - the couple, who were obviously distressed anyway. If she’d wanted to speak to the son and say that, she could have done so later, in private - we have his number. She’s obviously a very brisk, no-nonsense type who doesn’t mince words, but to me it was tactless and insensitive.
At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, unless there’s really no alternative, who on earth is going to be putting anyone in a care home anyway - even if they’re willing to go? Not to mention that you can’t ‘put’ anyone with mental capacity if they don’t choose to go.
Maybe I’m BU but the lack of sensitivity to a lovely couple really bothered me. The ‘forthright’ neighbour has not known the couple nearly as long as we have, so presumably just thinks of them as pathetic oldies who need to be firmly told what’s good for them, rather than the smart, active people we knew before.
I think BlueBelle's advice(about sixth above this)is good practical stuff. A falls nurse sounds to me to be a worthy specialism.
I do think you have a moral right , in view of all the de facto caring you have done, to contact the GP or falls nurse of whoeever on behalf of the old people.
Agree welbeck
OP has asked for this discussion to be deleted by GN;
so i think we should leave it now.
How old is this couple?
Why don't they call their son, who can call their carers or an ambulance to help them?
Why the neighbours?
This couple chooses to remain at their home despite the son wanting them to move closer to him.
Is his son fully aware of all the challenges and needs this couple has?
If they are so mentally capable, dont they realize their falls are a problem and they need more help?
Why don't they arrange for more care, a pendant service, etc?
Instead, they choose to pass the hot potato to their neighbours who cannot handle this responsibility (like the OP) or dont want to be put in that position (like the other nieghbour being judged in this post)
That is so selfish on their part. Getting old means you know you will need more and more help the less independent you become and as adults, you take care of that.
You adapt to your needs, not everybody around you
quizqueen is also correct. Its very easy to cause injury and the types of injuries that can be caused by untrained assistance of a fall are the type that get marked as cause for concern and social services
I suspect they are playing down who else they ring.
The OP thoughg they were the only "involved" neighbour, however it turns out the other neighbour had been called on more than once.
If they are playing down their needs they might be rotating who they call.
If members of their family live close by then they should be ringing them as the first port of call to help if they need anything. An ambulance should always to be called in the event of a fall. An untrained person could easily break a bone or cause muscular damage in helping frail elderly people up from a fall and, although you feel you should give physical assistance, you are foolish to do, in my opinion.
wrong thread
If Chaplains were meeting the welfare needs of staff in the crisis then why have trusts hired in lay psychologists and mental health nurses to manage staff welfare during the pandemic?
Turns out staff rightly so want and need proper professional psychological support. Not an outdated chaplaincy.
If the chaplains were so great at it they would be involved in leading it. Which they arent. They are supporting religous staff who want to use the prayer room.
They are not providing the overarching welfare programs for all staff. Nothing close to it.
We do not know if neighbour talked to elderly couple before and it didn't work.
We do not know if their mental capabilities are intact.
All we know is neighbour was direct and talked to their son about how his parents need more care than the current care arrangement
But the OP doesnt know how many times same neighbour said more gently that they were not happy with the situation of being relied upon to care.
For us the message did not get through until we put our foot down and said we would do nothing. Even in an emergency.
Because when we tried to say we would help in an emergency IF we were in this was taken as an assumption that we would/could do regular car and we were getting people trying to book in handrail installments via us and all sorts.
I don’t disagree that the son needs to know, but the anger that something was said to this couple and how dehumanising It is, is my confusion. I don’t think I was clear.
I just think it’s More insulting to leave them out of the conversation
Summerlove sometimes the right hand needs to speak to the left hand.
Like when my neighbour and their next if kin told the hospital therapists and social workers what willing and helpful neighbours they had so they didnt need rehab or interim care.
It wasnt true and had I been able to be in touch with the next of kin I would have told them so and then therapy and social services could have done a more accurate assessment.
But I wasnt in touch with the next of kin and they never questioned whether our neighbour was telling the truth about us being willing daily carers.
I couldnt even get the next of kin details off social services when they kept phoning me, because being not the next of kin, I wasnt entitled to details I didnt already know.
So its a good idea for everybody to be on the same page with the correct info. I think the son does need to know that not everyone who is being relief on is willing.
If this couple is still completely mentally capable, why all the suggestions about talking to the son instead of them?
Surely that’s more insulting? Treating them like children who can’t make their own choices?
For their safety your neighbours need to each have a personal alarm to summon help. My Mum lived at home with help from carers and me until she was 97 and then moved in with me. She had to use the alarm a number of times. It is usually connected to an agency which sends someone to respond to the call. It helps to preserve independence. Maybe you could mention this to their son? Your neighbour imo was rude and insensitive.
Even of the neighbour was only called twice, what she might have seen in that home granted that reaction.
All we have described in the post is mostly a yabu/yanbu ethical discussion about how harsh was the neighbour vs what the real conditions for that elderly couple are.
We are all reading between the lines and assuming scenarios.
Also, the person in question did not appear to have been very involved in the elderly couple’s situation
And yet there they were on call....
@Mods, please delete this thread now, thank you.
The neighbour in question has very rarely been asked for help, @Hithere. I think maybe only once before.
@Tweedle24, thank you, you have understood the situation perfectly.
Mods, I think this thread has run its course now.
I got the impression that Witzend was concerned, not so much withe sentiments but, the way they were delivered. Also, the person in question did not appear to have been very involved in the elderly couple’s situation so did not really have the right to express that opinion in front of someone who had definitely been closely involved and knew more about them.
I forgot.
Tbe elderly couple being all apologetic and sweetly appreciating the help does not mean they could be expecting too much of other people who are not trained as carers and paid as such.
I had a neighbour downstairs whose mother was sick.
This neighbour had earned the reputation of being unreasonable and rude, expecting the whole building to adapt their lifestyle around the sick mother's needs.
Talking to downstairs neighbour diplomatically, trying to take their requests in consideration by not doing things they complained about, etc., wasn't enough.
After years of this dance, this downstairs neighbour got told in a very direct manner that this was a building where families live, not a medical community where patients were put first and she should consider moving her mother to a place where the mother's medical needs would be better addressed.
Downstairs neighbour zipped it.
OP just witnessed what happened with this
seemly rude neighbour this one time only.
We do not know how often this elderly couple contacts this neighbour for help, for how long they have been doing it and how it impacts this neighbour's life.
Maybe neighbour was straight forward as she is fed up with the situation. Maybe she had a bad day or she is just plain unpleasant. With the information given to us in the post, we do not know.
OP said neigbour is pleasant any other circumstances OP and dh saw her.
Allegedly rude neighbour does have an excellent point - while this couple seem to have all their mental capacity intact, they cannot live alone with their current level of care when they have their neighbours on speed dial.
These elderly couple seem to be in denial as well. If they claim they can live independently with some carers coming in, they are in denial.
What you see from the outside, them being mentally intact may not be the truth and they are hiding other conditions.
The neighbourhood cannot be made responsible to cover the gaps this elderly couple needs.
I wonder if they were calling the other neighbour when you were previously unavailable, and that’s why perhaps they felt so frustrated.
This might be an escalation to you, but more of the same to other neighbour.
They sound like they need proper care sooner rather than later.
There are times for soubtlety and there are times when the situation doesnt sink in without tough love
But it sounds like theyre still not getting the difference between one offs and regular/ongoing issues, however apologetic they may be at the time.
They (and to some extent you too) are treating their falls like stand alone emergencies. Not a change in their needs.
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