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Massive Family Problem

(40 Posts)
Meg54 Mon 21-Jun-21 18:50:38

This also includes lots of characters, so if you want to proceed, grab a cuppa, or glass of something, as this going to be a long read.
I am the eldest daughter of five, to a mother aged 87.
For clarity I shall name the daughters in order of birth.
A. Abbey (me)
B. Brenda (lives with mum in family home)
C. Clare (lives with hubby , but near to Mum)
D. Delia (lives about 120 miles away)
E. Ellen. (Mums youngest and favourite daughter ((though Mum would never admit it)).
In August of last year I received a text to say that Ellen had "borrowed" £46k. from Brenda to pay off massive credit card debts. Brenda earns approx 16K PA, this was her life savings.
Ellen earns £76+ PA from a high powered job, but is a massive spendthrift, and has now a debt of about 85K, (after Brenda's loan!) but not including her mortgage -Ellen is mortgaged to the hilt.
Ellen is still spending, but buying "bargains" for Mum And Brenda, which they pay Ellen in full for.
They range from £275 for a beautiful ball gown bargain for Brenda (who does not have a ball gown lifestyle, but loves sparkly stuff) to £140, last month alone, for some reduced supermarket bargains - in a household of 2 people. 90% of which is binned.
Mum has a full size larder freezer and a separate larder fridge. They are packed to the gunnels with bargains, supplied by Ellen.
I believe Ellen is a shopaholic, and having had a spending limit imposed by Delia (who has overseen her finances) is still pandering to her addiction, but Mum and Brenda are paying for it.
Mum will not have a word said against Ellen.
Brenda is an absolute sweetie who will not criticize anyone, but even now she is starting to get sick of the stuff coming into the house.
It is also worth noting Ellen has become hooked on internet auction sites. Buying utter crap, and trying to sell it on, mostly at a loss.
As with other family members I have financially contributed to reducing Ellen's debts.
But I think unless Ellen gets professional help we are on a hiding to nothing.
We cannot tell Mum about Ellen's situation, as we have no doubt than Mum would give her all her life savings - which Brenda is set to inherit (including the house, which Brenda shares with Mum).
I am seeing Mum tomorrow.
Is there a diplomatic way of letting her know her favourite is, quite frankly, a sh*t.,as I cannot spill the beans , obviously.
Because I am sick of listening to Mum's exhortations about what a success Ellen is making of her life.
Anyone else know of a wrong 'un and how to handle it?
Meg.

M0nica Wed 23-Jun-21 16:07:31

But you first have to get the family to see that this is the only way to solve the problem. But in this case, as in so many others, the family are complicit with the gambler and submit to her blackmail and are part of the problem. It is just they have far more cash available to support the gambler than most familie.

So, unfortunately, the crunch, when it comes, will be so much more devastating for all of them.

Nansnet Wed 23-Jun-21 12:29:36

FarNorth, I do agree with you, and I admit that I didn't explain myself correctly. Ellen does indeed have other options, but, as she's obviously in denial, she's unlikely to take them, unless her family confront her, and agree not to bail her out, and make her face up to the problem.

FarNorth Wed 23-Jun-21 08:49:00

Nansnet of course they do but it is never a case of "no alternative".

Nansnet Wed 23-Jun-21 08:26:56

FarNorth

^if Ellen gets into much more trouble and has no alternative but to ask your mother to bail her out!^

That is never the case.
Ellen has the options available to anyone else in debt, which don't include taking from her mother.

Ellen should be faced with the consequences of her actions and probably needs to have counselling and expert help to deal with it.

Step Change is a charity that helps with debt, or try Citizens Advice.

Granted, Ellen does have other options, but it is often the case that people who get themselves into debt will first scrounge from family/friends, until the bail-outs dry up, before attempting to deal with the problem in some other way, as we have already seen here, with Ellen taking 46k of Brenda's life savings. Ellen has no morals, she will continue to take, and indeed expect, bail-outs until the family put a stop to it.

aggie Wed 23-Jun-21 07:43:51

Ellen is ill and needs psychiatric help , in fact you all need it !

FarNorth Wed 23-Jun-21 07:36:49

if Ellen gets into much more trouble and has no alternative but to ask your mother to bail her out!

That is never the case.
Ellen has the options available to anyone else in debt, which don't include taking from her mother.

Ellen should be faced with the consequences of her actions and probably needs to have counselling and expert help to deal with it.

Step Change is a charity that helps with debt, or try Citizens Advice.

mumofmadboys Wed 23-Jun-21 06:40:18

Could your mother know what is going on but choosing to ignore it?

Nansnet Wed 23-Jun-21 06:01:28

So, Ellen thinks she doesn't have a problem, even though she's had to take Brenda's 46k life savings, AND she still has debts around 85k?! Her excessive spending is having a detrimental effect on your whole family, and it needs to be stopped!

Your whole family need to come together, with Ellen, and explain to her once and for all that this can't go on any longer. You need to make her aware, in no uncertain terms, that there will be no more bail outs, and she needs to work out a plan to pay back Brenda's money. She needs to be told, very firmly, that the spending has to stop. That no one in the family wants/needs her gifts, which she can't afford to buy anyway!

You should offer to help her make a plan, by sitting down with her to go over her finances, and work out how to get her out of this mess, by closing credit card accounts, and consolidating payments for them, and contacting companies to try to agree some sort of monthly payment that she could manage. Most importantly, she needs to be making a regular monthly payment to Brenda to pay back the 45k. She obviously has absolutely no moral conscience whatsoever, to have taken her Brenda's life savings, knowing she earns so little, when she has a good job with a very generous salary.

Instead of enabling her to carry on this outrageous lifestyle, which is having a detrimental effect on the rest of the family, she needs to be told truths, and made to feel ashamed of her actions. Until then, she will continue to do as she pleases, and your mother could end up losing her own home if Ellen gets into much more trouble and has no alternative but to ask your mother to bail her out!

Some may say Ellen is an adult and it's none of your business to interfere in her financial affairs, but when it effects other family members it absolutely becomes other people's business! You have a right to interfere, in order to protect your mother, and Brenda.

NotSpaghetti Tue 22-Jun-21 10:39:33

Mmmn. Interesting point *FarNorth.

FarNorth Tue 22-Jun-21 10:19:33

Meg what do you believe would happen if Mother was told about the true situation?

If Mother believes that Ellen is doing wonderfully well, why would she also believe that she needs to give Ellen all her money?

Would Mother really be happy to leave Brenda penniless and homeless, in order to give everything to Ellen?

Perdido Tue 22-Jun-21 08:50:53

There is something rather sad going on here in that shopaholic Ellen has this compulsion to keep buying stuff for her mother and sister that they neither want nor need.

Abbey/Meg has described their mother as a matriarch which may be just a word or may mean they regard her as a powerful and domineering force within the family who is not to be displeased or disagreed with

I think so as they are all jumping through hoops to protect her from the truth when what Mother, as well as Ellen, need is a darn good talking to. Somewhere upthread, Abbey/Meg said Ellen doesn’t want her mother to know the truth. In other words not to break Mother’s fantasy that her favourite daughter has got heself into a mess and isn't the great success Mother thinks she is.

From what I can gather, Mother thinks all the stuff coming into the house is being paid for from Ellen’s own salary rather than knowing that her carer daughter Brenda had handed over her life savings to bail Ellen out of some of her debts.

So why is so much of Ellen’s spending on things for her mother and sister? Why does she need to buy their affection because that’s what it sounds like to me.

Brenda has been described as sweet, naive, not streetwise and liking sparkly things. If mother is 87 and Brenda is the second eldest I’m guessing she must be in her sixties. Abbey/Meg says Brenda earns 16k pa which is minimum wage but also describes her as mother’s carer so is that 16K being earned outside the home or is mother paying Brenda a wage? Is isn’t clear but could be important. Abbey/Meg still hadn’t explained why Mother is leaving the house and all her money to Brenda. I’m wondering if she is vulnerable and needing protection in some way. It would be an unsual family of five siblings happy to see all their mother's estate go to one sibling unless there is a very good reason for it. Or perhaps, Brenda has made enormous sacrifices to care for Mother. In all of this there has never been a mention of Father or what happened to him.

I think there is a lot we don’t know about this family dynamic but it seems clear that Mother is central to how everyone behaves and that has to change.

NotSpaghetti Tue 22-Jun-21 08:06:19

I think the idea of a cap on payments for day-to day items is a good idea.
If there was a small limit on extras over and above the actual food/day to day shopping that surely would help.

It's a pity they have massive fridges/freezers as there's no way all these discounted items would fit in an ordinary fridge freezer...
I realise it's more than groceries but
baby steps.

I too would find the idea of Ellen moving in with mum and Brenda unthinkable. That can't happen...
What a difficult situation.
You can't just make Brenda "toughen up" but if course that's what's needed.
Might she be able to say "no" more easily if you all made a sort-of "pact"? It would at least give Brenda an excuse.

Definitely talk to your siblings as a group.
Good luck.

Revolucion Tue 22-Jun-21 07:54:15

What you can do is to talk to Brenda and explain what you think is going on here. You can also talk to Ellen.
Apart from this there’s nothing you can do to rescue anyone.
You are all adults and can all make decisions for yourselves.
Maybe this will end with Ellen taking everything that your DM and Brenda have but that is not in your control.
Maybe DM will choose not to bail out Ellen if it leaves Brenda homeless.
You cannot control this situation OP.

M0nica Tue 22-Jun-21 07:53:19

The OP says in the OP that they are not real names.

I do not withdraw a word of what I have written above. This is a classic case of a family in denial. They are enabling an addict to a quite an astonishing degree. The sums involved are way beyond 99%, no, 99.9% or more of most households. This is co-dependancy on a worryingly intense scale.

What concerns me most is the damage they are doing to the addicted sister, making her recovery more and more difficult, helping her dig the hole she is in deeper and deeper, yet they see their behaviour as loving and supportive.

Smurf52 Tue 22-Jun-21 02:12:15

"Are these the real names? This is a public forum and your story seems easily identifiable if any of your family saw it! Plus sometimes thread dilemmas are posted on Facebook. "

I doubt it as they are alphabetical smile

welbeck Tue 22-Jun-21 01:57:59

i disagree with some people on here.
i can see why OP wants to protect her mother and her sister who lives with and looks after her mother.
they are both vulnerable people.
i don't know what to suggest, OP.
is there any way you can be in charge of finances for you mother, eg ordering groceries, paying utilities, and other necessaries, so she only has access to a small sum for personal items.
that would limit what she could give to Ellen.
and if you all had a council of war, including Brenda, to agree that no one must give any more money to Ellen, nor accept so-called bargains, and certainly not pay for them.
then have Ellen in on the meeting and tell her your joint decision.
but unless you could control your mother's use of money, i guess Ellen could circumvent your plans by approaching mother.
i do see the problem. i hope you sort something to improve things.

FarNorth Mon 21-Jun-21 23:11:23

As you are on your mother's bank accounts, can it be arranged that there is a limit to how much she can take out without getting your signature also?

Hithere Mon 21-Jun-21 22:27:42

Meg54,

You are in major denial - enabling happens at all levels (for example you trying to save B's home)
So you enable B, who enables E.

Where ellen is going to live if bailiff calls is not your problem
Your mother and sister will enable your sister letting her live with them - it is their choice, not yours

Dont you see how the whole family is in this?
Hiding the pink elephant in the room so your mother is "safe" from this?

Fairyfootsteps Mon 21-Jun-21 22:11:33

Ellen is an addict. I have experience of addicts, and they are all the same. She will suck you dry (not just financially) and then spit you out, because nothing matters more than her addiction. After that she’ll still be an addict, but you’ll all be shrivelled up and exhausted. Step away from her until she’s ready to acknowledge she needs help, then help her in every possible way. Persuade the others to do the same. If they won’t, that’s their decision.

Madgran77 Mon 21-Jun-21 21:51:21

Meg glad it is not real names.

The whole family need to get together, agree a course of action, and then firmly pull the rug from under Ellen and make it clear that, as everything the family has done for her has only made the situation worse, in kindness to her the best thing you can do is stop and she must seek help

I agree with this

Meg54 Mon 21-Jun-21 21:38:43

Monica.
Thanks for the reply.

However this is not family enabling Ellen.

With the exception of two family members, the family are trying to protect the two family members who are both vulnerable.
One is a 87 year disabled matriach who, as in the OP, is wholly unaware of the situation, and we know if she was aware would have no qualms about paying of all her favourite daughter debts.
The second is her carer and daughter who who has looked after her through thick, thin and covid.
Ellen does not live in the family home, so the items she buys are not immediately aware to anyone until days later - usually when we visit. We all know to check for stuff out of date, but irratating as it is, this is not a major concern.
If the bailiffs call - where is Ellen going to live ? Why straight into the her mothers and sisters home - the very thing we are trying to avoid - as her influence would be unchallengable.
I am not a friend of Jim's, but recognise the parrarels. I will not make "the catastrophe worse".
However I will, and have, taken every precaution to continue to take my mother and sister's security a priority.
And I will not hesitate to throw Ellen to the dogs.
But I will offer her the opportunity to recover first.
Thanks for your input.
Meg.

Mattsmum2 Mon 21-Jun-21 21:08:40

Meg54

Thanks all.

Madgran:
Not real names.

Mattsmum:
Mum DEFINATELY does not know.
And Ellen does not want her to know.
Ellen does not think she has a problem. she is just "crap with money".
The other things are in hand, but not easy to access due to lockdown. I agree with all having to come together, but easier said than done.
Sister Delia was the first to organise recovery as it was deemed she had the best relationship with Ellen. However, Delia is a NHS first responder so was fighting bigger battles at the time.
All the other items you have suggested have been actioned, however it is very easy to open uo accounts through another route.

Hithere:
Mum does not know about her financial situation - she's 87. As none of her other 5 (fairly streetwise kids) new about it, Mum had no chance. Ellen was (and is still) earning a large amount of money. She just spends 3 times the money she earns. Mum would not be able to deny her the money -that's what we are trying to avoid.
I added myself to Mum's bank accounts last year (before this all kicked off), so I would know if anything irregular was going on. Mum has a file with all her bank account statements updated every month in a file at her home. The family can inspect it at any time, so no money going out to Ellen.
You're right, everyone is enabling Ellen
But if we kiss the loans goodbye and forget about the money, then Ellan is free to carry on - because there are no consequences.
Brenda cannot forget about the money, this is her life savings, as mentioned in the OP, she is a sweet (albeit naive person).
And it is my circus, and it is my monkeys.
THIS IS MY FAMILY.
Thanks for the responses folks.
Meg.

If she carries on she will lose everything and be declared bankrupt. Maybe that will be the only way she stops. No mortgage for a long time, no cards, no means. What does she do for work? There are some jobs where you have to be financially responsible, such as in finance and lawyers? Whatever happens you have to stop bankrolling her. Tricky, but you may have to let it get so bad and ensure the consequences are not bad for those trying to help x

M0nica Mon 21-Jun-21 21:04:04

Surely Brenda, whether she is 'streetwise' or not is able to work out that if a very rich younger sister who has an exceptionally well paid job with perks galore has run herself up an eneormous debt by compulsive spending then to give her money to pay those debts until she has shown that the spending has stopped is like pouring petrol on a fire.

Saying She would help anyone in need, even if their need is lesser than hers. cuts no ice Surely she can see that she is not helping someone in need, she is actually enabling her sister's problems to get worse and worse and worse. She is buying cases of whisky to help an alcoholic, to continue the analogy I used above.

The whole family need to get together, agree a course of action, and then firmly pull the rug from under Ellen and make it clear that, as everything the family has done for her has only made the situation worse, in kindness to her the best thing you can do is stop and she must seek help

Here is a link to a site that can offer help to shopping addicts and their family www.uk-rehab.com/behavioural-addictions/shopping/

Google 'shopping addiction uk' and you wil get pages of organisations dealing with addiction to all kinds of things that can help your sister and the rest of the family.

In this situation any money to relieveeven her most pressing debts should be to help her stay on the straight and narrow, after she has admitted she has a problem and is several months into therapy, has destroyed all her credit cards and has reduced her debt by £10,000 (on her salary).

Hithere Mon 21-Jun-21 20:45:36

It is not up to you to save something that doesnt belong to you - brenda's home

It is up to brenda to wise up and get street smarter fast, as she could end up homeless and in debt.

It doesnt matter how much ellen earns vs brenda earns.

Honestly, you can only make a difference with items you have control over.

Help brenda? Nope
Help ellen? No

I know you mean well, but there is nothing you can do to fix this

Ellen has to hit rock bottom to make changes

Meg54 Mon 21-Jun-21 20:39:37

Brenda is not streatwise.
She would help anyone in need, even if their need is lesser than hers.

The POA and contents of the will are not relevant, they are Mothers wishes and have been agreed by all her offsping.

And to reiterate. Ellen earns 4 times the amount that Brenda doesi in a year, and has a fully company provided car, all expenses paid, which is another big outlay she does not have to budget for, unlike Brenda.

And because the rest of the family I am trying to protect Brenda's home.
And none of us know the rest of the finances of the siblings financial circumstances.