AIBU No going back to school I’m furious.

Really Grandad1943? You're the one who has taken personal offense at your company not getting a contract.

Footnote to trisher's post about unions in schools. GMB and Unison (and Unite to a lesser extent) have a significant presence in schools. These days, a secondary school is likely to have a workforce made up of about 50% non-teaching staff, including teaching assistants, other teaching support staff, cover supervisors, technicians, admin staff and cleaners and catering staff (where they haven't been outsourced).

Most of the above belong to Unison or GMB. As I've mentioned before, support staff (including teaching assistants) are likely to be the ones most affected by social distancing because they work closely with the most needy pupils.

I've ploughed my way through some of the many documents already produced by the HSE on schools. It is absolutely clear that even the HSE does not believe that schools can return to anything like normality. For example, in secondary schools, they state that no more than a quarter of pupils should be on site at any one time. Schools would have no difficulty making a case to the HSE that they cannot open fully - it's already in the HSE's documentation.

The issue is that the government seems unaware of the HSE's guidance and is telling the public that schools can go beyond that guidance by admitting all pupils. If they were to do so, they would not only be putting pupils and staff in danger, but contravening the HSE's guidance.

Governance of schools is also an issue. There is no uniform pattern in England (Scotland, Wales and NI are different again). Most secondary schools are now academies with an individual governing body, accountable directly to the DfE. Some primary schools are also part of academy chains, although the majority are still run by local councils. A significant number of schools are also faith schools, which have various governance models.

PS. I'm still surprised that a teacher would have been the contact for health and safety. In a secondary school, the business manager would be the point of contact. In a small primary school, the point of contact would usually be a representative from the academy chain or the council. Some larger primary schools now have their own business manager.

That's a good point growstuff, why was a teacher taking on the responsibility to sort this out? Maybe that is why she cried off the Saturday meeting. In the independent sector it is the job of the bursar to do this, teaching staff would not get involved. Bursars have a very important role and decide the health and safety aspects of the school. They are highly qualified, proactive professionals often from a military background. Maybe that is why so many private schools are now back up and running full pelt.

Oh dear, this teaching profession are so touchy.

People tend to be if you are critical with a personal attack and no obvious basis for that criticism.

Ellianne

That's a good point growstuff, why was a teacher taking on the responsibility to sort this out? Maybe that is why she cried off the Saturday meeting. In the independent sector it is the job of the bursar to do this, teaching staff would not get involved. Bursars have a very important role and decide the health and safety aspects of the school. They are highly qualified, proactive professionals often from a military background. Maybe that is why so many private schools are now back up and running full pelt.

Re private schools. I may be wrong but I Think it is possibly because they start off with smaller class sizes, have more space and resources and funding.

As I have stated before on this thread, I was busily engaged with one of our legal secretaries in compiling a report that was to accompany a safety audit to an employer. Someone from the school rang into our office and that call was passed through to me.

I believe the person I spoke to was the headteacher and she began to explain that she had been referred to our business by an employee of a company we had carried out safety work for.

I stopped her at that point by informing her that we did not undertake what we would consider public safety work but following further conversation I stated that we may be prepared to offer free advice on the situation. I further stated in that regard I would get a senior member of one of our Assignment teams to contact her school so as to attend and view the layout etc.

A further phone number was then given to me which I passed on later to an assignment team controller. He then contacted that person who I believe was the deputy head and the exchange took place in regard us attending the school on the following Saturday, which met with the response that she is not in attendance at the premises at weekends.

I have no idea why anyone contacted us in the first instance, perhaps there was a clash of personalities within the management structure or something likewise. Judging by the bureaucracy described in this thread that exists within schools I would not be surprised if the above was the situation

However, as far as I am aware no further contact has been made between our Assignment controller and the person he was referred to. In that, I have not bothered to find out as we have been far to busy and I would not wish for our employee to bother with it further if there is little cooperation at the establishment.

Anyway, it is Father Day and our three daughters and grandchildren are coming over for a socially distanced garden event (weather permitting) so see you later. ?

True Lucca, but the Bursar and the Head work as a team to cover all aspects and provide support to each other on a daily basis. Of course a clever Bursar will also have enough contingency money to cover such eventualities. They can make decisions on the spot rather than having to go through frustratingly long winded processes as mentioned by many on this thread. Even a very skilled teacher would have neither the knowledge nor the business acumen to deal with all the aspects of running a school.

Ellianne In state secondary schools, the bursar's role is done by somebody whose title is usually Business Manager. Most of the business managers I have ever known have been part of the senior leadership team and are very often former bank managers or similar. When high street banks started closing, many former bank managers found jobs in schools, as schools became academies and were responsible for handling their own budgets. There is a rigorous qualification for school business managers, who are often responsible for large multi-million pound budgets and hundreds of staff. Although the head still has overall responsibility for the school, as teaching and learning are the core function of any school, there is no way that a headteacher could also have expertise in business management.

Thanks growstuff.

That is sad to hear , my GD is in year 9 & literally just started her GCSE work last week . She has already had feedback on it .
My Year 6 GS went back to School just 2 weeks ago until then he was being homeschooled by my son who is also working from home. That leaves my GD aged 8 year 3 at home with no sibling & Daddy working all day , he has quite a responsible role & is tied up on conference calls most of the day . I have been taking it in turns to spend time with GD as it’s not ideL for her to be own her own , she also has no set school Ugh she is a very good girl & DS has set a timetable with Math, Literacy , break time etc etc. DIL is a key worker .
Then my other 2 Year 2 &4 GDs have been at School throughout as DD is also a Keyworker , though it has to be said that my DD finds it impossible to manage home schooling with them . # Lockdown Wprries

Ellianne The reason private schools have continued to run online lessons is because the parents wouldn't pay fees if they didn't. They also have smaller groups and most of the pupils have their own laptops. Sometimes they even give their pupils laptops or tablets on entry to the school.

The online lessons are a different issue. I am speaking about the ability to get a school physically back up and running with all safety measures in place.
Yes, paying parents are rightly demanding.

To be fair, lots of independent schools have several bursars - one for finance, one for health and safety, one for grounds and premises. I guess that is the difference that money buys.

The parents will want their children to return to the same school Growstuff, so I doubt the issue is really about school fees for this period in many cases although grumbles about fees are as common as other grumbles we hear that have little to substantiate them.

Independent schools simply have many resources that state schools don't. I would rather ask why the state schools and the children going to them are not receiving what they need than attack the small percentage of independent schools.

I know both of my GCs had to have tablets at their independent school (in Australia but not that different) but I promise you that no such school, to my knowledge, would "give" them to the children. They would either be asked to provide them or they would be billed for them.

Equally my now adult GCs, who attended our local secondary schools, had to provide a given tablet or, in certain cases, could have one on loan from the school.

We know the state schools have had their incomes cut while the needs of the pupils has grown. I would have thought it was imperative that, at the very least, the children should, from their very first day be familiarised with technology. The schools need the money to do this but so do the families. If you want the best future you actually have to invest all round in the children, as I am sure you would agree. It sometimes feels to me that this government want all schools to be fee paying with some pauper schools as in the past. That does not bode well for the future in my mind.

And I can promise you that two of my current tutees were given laptops by their private schools when they started at the schools. Of course, the cost has already been factored into the fees.

Many private schools were already on a financial knife edge and quite a number (can't remember exact percentage) close every year anyway.

There were articles in the TES at the beginning of lockdown about the loss of income from overseas pupils. Private schools were also extremely worried that parents wouldn't pay if pupils weren't attending school.

Private schools seem to have adopted full school day online teaching, which is possible because their pupils have equipment and small groups are involved. Even overseas pupils can participate from wherever they are in the world.

Since I went exclusively online with my own tuition, all my new pupils have been from the private sector.

Ggumteenth, quite a few independent schools issue all students with laptops or tablets. They remain the property of the school, but the student has the same one right through their time at school, and all maintenance and software are provided by the school. When they leave school, the device is either returned to the school, or the student may buy it for a nominal price. Mind you, after seven years of heavy use, they wouldn’t be worth anything to anyone else. Students are not charged directly when they receive the device, but of course, that is one of the things that accounts for the high fees paid by parents.

There are advantages. It means all kids are using the same software, so a teacher can give the same instructions to a whole class, and they can all do it. Teachers are familiar with common issues that arise, and can usually solve them in the classroom rather than sending a child off to IT in the middle of a lesson. The machines usually have child protection software, and many also have software that allows the teacher to see what students are doing, so they can guide them through tasks by taking control of the screen. Security is managed by the school network management team, so it’s much less likely that viruses and phishing attacks get through, and if they do, each device can be remotely disabled.

Since everyone has an identical machine, there’s no distinction between full fee-paying students and those who are on reduced fees or bursaries because of income. Students have to get permission to add software, so they generally can’t use them for serious gaming. If their device fails, the student can be issued with an identical loan machine while their own is being repaired.

State schools cannot force parents to buy their children computers, although I know of one school which states that it expects all pupils to have their own ipad. They use it as a backdoor selection method because the requirement (plus an expensive school uniform) deter poorer parents.

At the beginning of lockdown, my local secondary school did an audit and made sure that school laptops and tablets were lent to those pupils without home access. Arrangements were also made to ensure they had wifi.

This is generally a wealthy area and there weren't that many pupils involved. It would obviously be a much bigger problem where there are more needy families and children.

SNAP geekesse

Of course, the cost has already been factored into the fees.

So they weren't "given them". Their parents paid for them and they were handed out at a specific time. This is splitting hairs but being inaccurate helps no argument. We want all children to have the best education and the best possible environment to learn at home and at school. Attacking the independent sector is such a waste of time.

Private schools seem to have adopted full school day online teaching, which is possible because their pupils have equipment and small groups are involved. Even overseas pupils can participate from wherever they are in the world.

That seems to me to be the important bit. If we don't make this possible for all children then they are disadvantaged and become more and more disadvantaged.

Ggumteenth, quite a few independent schools issue all students with laptops or tablets. They remain the property of the school, but the student has the same one right through their time at school, and all maintenance and software are provided by the school. When they leave school, the device is either returned to the school, or the student may buy it for a nominal price.

This is very similar to what happened to my early 20s adult GC's at their state secondary schools. I would be more interested in asking why one state school can do this but not all although I could guess as we/they live/d in a fairly affluent area where the schools do not have some of the calls on their budget that you might have in a much less affluent one. It is about "levelling up" all round. Sadly, although Boris talks the talk about this I really doubt if he will walk the walk as that would almost certainly mean, under the Conservative view of how economies work, increasing taxes.

And that will always cause the big divide Ggt.
If you think about it private schools are not asking for the government to bail them out. It is the tax paying parents at the school who are paying for the school to operate. It is also those same tax paying parents who are indirectly assisting the government with the handouts to state schools.

GGumteenth I don't know why you're trying to pick an argument with me. I was just stating the situation as it is. I apologise if you object to the word "giving". Of course, no private school pupil is "given" anything. Fees pay for everything they receive - apart from schools with endowments.

Secondary schools these days are more or less free to do what they want with their money. 80-85% is usually spent on salaries and staff on costs, but the schools can do what they want with the rest. Some schools choose not to buy any textbooks, but to invest in computers. Some schools might choose to run small classes for less popular subjects. Some might choose to spend the money on extra cleaning or support staff.

All schools receive extra funding for pupils eligible for pupil premium, which doesn't need to be ring-fenced, but the schools need to demonstrate that they're closing the attainment gap between the poorest pupils and the rest. There are some other grants available and the general funding formula is supposed to take account of the school's circumstances.

A state school which can afford laptops/tablets for all pupils is making savings elsewhere.

Ellianne Tax paying parents (and grandparents) whose children don't go to private schools are also contributing to government bail outs.

What makes you think I want an arguments Growstuff? I really don't. I was just clarifying that the small number of independent schools are not the issue; the investment in children and there education is.