when to stop

Sounds as if your DiL would benefit from some helpful guidance on what is expected of her. Eg school uniform, appropriate clothing, level of supervision, playing out. She may just not know what her responsibilities as a parent are here, especially if she is used to having servants. She may even be grateful for the information.
If you are willing you could arrange to do some activites with your GD at weekends, at prearranged times, explain to DiL that that is what other families do and what children need.
Could she do some kind of child development class / read a book about it?
If social services had ever become involved for any reason I think they would have taken a dim view of lack of supervision and activity - signs of neglect.

I'm not sure they do actually live with cathy9 * GJ* I got the impression they did formerly, but now that cathy goes over to babysit after school, but I may have missed something.
I do find it all confusing though, and agree both parents share the responsibility for their daughter. I don't see the relevance of DS's promise to "do more at weekends" if the little girl stays in her own room at night. Fair enough if she needs a "carrot" but why is she coming (presumably) into their room? Insecurity? Because she sees so little of them? The impression I get is of a couple who have not really taken on board what family life is about.
You seem to be treading on eggshells. Your offer of cooking because you thought your DIL might not be well could sounded like implicit criticism. We all like to be needed but sometimes daughters don't like to ask!!
Why did you worry about "being assertive" when you pointed out your DGD should have been in summer uniform? Did she not tell her mum or the school not tell her? I have to admit DD made exactly the same mistake a year ago when she herself went back to work after maternity leave and started (teaching) at a new school after Easter, and trying to be organised, got 4 year old DGS's uniform all ready for the new term including 2 new pairs of trousers only for him to come home on day one and tell her all the boys were in shorts! Grrr!!
Different countries do have different customs and perhaps your DIL thinks it is normal for granny to do all the work, but your son was presumably brought up in the UK so I am amazed at his attitude.
I do wonder if there are deeper problems but at present you have a hard choice, step into the breach(?) or have the conversation with the parents about their responsibilities. You could of course just "not be available" ?

Just do not know what to say- but it also seems to me your son is equally responsible, a/ by his long absence and b/ by lying in bed when he is home- but mainly for living with you with his family. Here is the crux of the matter- they need to find their own home and you enjoy yours as you wish to, and not be put in this impossible situation. Not interfering is one thing, but not interfering when it is under your roof and you witness every minute and then are not alllowed to pick up pieces in the only way you see fit- is just impossible- and terrible for your health alround I'd say.



damned if you do, damned if you don't - a nightmare.

I think this having children brought up by older family members is normal in other cultures - I know a man who has married a much younger Thai woman with a young son - he is being brought up by HER grandmother! When she still lived in Thailand she lived and worked miles away and she was very happy to move to UK and leave the child behind.

Wilks, just opposite this house is a small convert. One of the nuns, who I spoke to yesterday, comes from Zambia. She is full of live and is returning for a holiday to Zambia next mnth.
She did put me straight when telling me that she was brought up by her grandparents, as her parents were abroad

Annodomini!

You sent me down memory lane a nooning. Same thing happened in Zambia. My husband even had his clothes hooked through the window one night!

Thanks so much for all your replies, much appreciated.

My son should be back in May, he has been away since the end of March, so let us hope all will change then, as my DL must be missing him.
Also, I seem to remember hearing him say to his daughter:
'If you stay downstairs at night we can get out at the w/e more often'

After he left she was enjoying sleeping with her mum, but I believe now she has remained in her room at night, so hopefully it will get better.
To give you some idea of how my two were brought up, although I expect I will get replies -- 'YOU DID WHAT!
From an early age we took them to the Lske District etc walking then being carried on our backs. Later on camping.
I sent our younger son on an YMCA holiday for a week when he was 10 yrs of age.
When they were both 14 they went on Outward Bound Courses, which was the making of them both. Did any of you put your kids on one of these courses?
Before they studied for their GCE, one did an exchange visit and the other went on a youth sailing trip. Besides of course the school trips, one scouting trip and naturally family holidays

Despite all I have been keeping quiet and not interfering at all. She won't be able to be in her pyjames next week as she is sharing a birthday party.
This evening it seemed to go down well, when I mentioned to my DL, in an assertive way; that the others in her form are now wearing their summer uniform, which they haven't bought yet, so she said she would sort that out at the w/e.

All the best and thanks again,

Cath

While I agree with most of what has been said and I certainly wouldn't want this for my DGC I sense too much blame being put on the DIL, parenting is a joint responsibility and both parents are to blame for this. I hope you can speak to both of them about your concerns Cath9, and I hope they're grateful for your love of your DGD, I think they're all very lucky to have you

I have no idea what your DIL was confused about. If she has a bike, then she must be used to going out on it!

My daughter had a terrible time with her 2 sons who hardly slept as babies and toddlers. There is no way she would sleep in and leave them watching TV when they were a bit older. She often texted me at 5 a.m. saying she was up playing Lego! She and her husband would take it in turns to have a lie in on Saturdays but only until about 10 a.m. and then they would do exhausting family things all weekend to try and tire the boys out - which never worked!

Should it not concern your DIL that you were able to go into her house, get her child and a bike ready and take them outside all without her hearing or knowing. I would be inclined to tell her that she was damn lucky it was a caring GP who took her child and not anyone else. Dumping a child in front of TV and staying in bed is bad enough but not knowing what is happening downstairs is positively dangerous. But you must be in such a difficult position if you say too much it could cause more problems. Maybe at some point you could begin to talk about other families and your GCs school friends and what they do at weekends and suggest GC is losing out. Good luck!

cathy9 on another thread you say you hae a DS and family in NZ with a similar age daughter. Would he be able to have a word with his brother as they sound to be in a similar situation?
Bottom line seems to be that you are assumed to be there as principal child care when it suits and DIL (and DS) feel they can lie in bed at weekends instead of looking after their little girl and enjoying play and other activities as a family.
It is not a question of independence, but basic childcare and family life which she is clearly not getting.

Indeed Blinko...works fail me too. I worked Mon-Fri in a stressful role and still had the energy to care for my daughter evenings and weekends. Supervising outside play in the garden, driving to drama class, piano classes, badminton and swimming sessions, just being a normal mum. I didn't see any of this as a chore, it was spending enjoyable bonding time with my daughter. Like other posters, I don't wish to appear judgmental but your DIL sounds a little selfish. My advice would be to help where you can and offer to take your GD on a Saturday and if DIL is not happy with her playing outside then there are lots of structured play groups and classes she could attend.

In bed all weekend...' Good grief, I don't get (or indeed, need) that now I'm 70 let alone as a young woman when the kids were small. And I worked full time Monday to Friday. Words fail me!

I am horrified at what I am reading, ' so tired you have to lie in bed all weekend '
clearly we have a generation that don't know they are born.
A child should not be left in front of TV to view without supervision. I am sorry if they are not prepared to put in the effort they should not be having children, it is neglect.

BTW, a relative who lives in Dar es Salaam has a ten-year-old daughter and pictures appearing on FB show her enjoying outdoor activities with a multi-national crowd of kids, especially football. Children in Tanzania can and do play outdoors.

Children actually have much more freedom in Africa generally and there is usually the 'Gogo' grandmother or other relatives around to keep an eye.
As to your question Jinglbellsfrocks about the windows being wired, this is for security - mainly to keep people out not to keep a child in!
Although I am from Southern African and not Tanzania, I would think the cultures are fairly similar, just very different from here in Britain...

jbf, when I lived in Kenya, many moons ago, we had grids over the windows to keep thieves out. There was a gap for the handle which allowed my cats to come in and out. When I found them, in the middle of the night, under my bed with a rat, I put some extra wiring over that gap! There was a special kind of burglary known as 'pole fishing' when a rod with a hook was inserted through the gap and anything that could he hooked and pulled through was taken. We lost a bath robe and a large towel that way.

cath9, I hope you are able to have your GD at some time during the weekend and take her out and about just like other children. Does she have any friends she plays with? She does sound like a rather solitary little girl. Girls love to go to and host sleepovers with their friends. That would put an end to your DiL's lie-in! All parents of young children I know spend a good deal of time taking them to various activities, most of them outdoors - tennis, football, bike rides. You name it...

My gd is 5 & lives with me, I'm her guardian. I wouldn't dream of lying in bed when she's up let alone all day! Parenting is tiring, I understand that but really? Who's feeding this kid & monitoring what she's watching? The TV is not a child minder! I don't even like to doze on the couch when I have a migraine because kids that age get up to all sorts of mischief. Try speaking to your son if your dil isn't approachable?

I adore my Brazilian daughter in law, but there is no doubt there are differences between the cultures. I do sympathise with Cath9 and agree with the advice given. Our grandson's Brazilian grandparents have just been over for 3 months and despite our son's firm instruction that GS should not be given too much sugar, they were spooning it down him in various forms, saying he needed it for energy! Hyper due to too much sugar?! I couldn't keep quiet on that one, but it was all done good naturedly and had no effect at all! My daughter in law also likes to sleep but luckily my son doesn't and she wouldn't leave liitleun unattended anyway. In Brazil they too have help at home and never walk anywhere. We could call it laziness but I think I'll stick to 'cultural differences'.

Newquay, bravo for speaking up for your friends' kids the way you did! Kudos to the mother, too, for taking your advice in the spirit in which it was given! Fortunately, she seems to look up to and have warm feelings towards you (calling you "Momma"), so I guess you were on fairly "safe" ground.

As I'm sure you know, some parents wouldn't have taken as kindly to it or responded so well, even if you were their own mother. You're lucky you didn't hurt the friendship/lose the friend. But again, I take it that you felt you were on safe ground. And, generally speaking, the children's welfare is more important, anyway, IMO.

However, I think it's much trickier for GPs. There's the risk of being distanced or cut off from their adult DS or DD, as well as their GC - and for many, as you surely realize, that prospect can be more painful than losing a friend/access to a friend's kids. Sometimes the risk is still worth it for the sake of the children's safety, etc., IMO. But except perhaps in the case of outright abuse, I think we GPs have to weigh our options carefully.

How wonderful that you are willing and able to help out, Cath! I watch my own GC after school a few days a week and I know GPs who do it every day, so you are not alone. But I know it can be quite tiring and have a big effect on a GP's schedule.

But you say you "have" GD "over the school holidays." Not sure if that means you watch her each weekday, until one of her parents comes home or that you take her to your home for the duration. But that does put a lot of responsibility on you. I know GPs, including myself, who watch their grands during some/part of these holidays, but it seems as if you do it all. Whew!

Is it getting to be "too much?" Is that why you're rethinking having her on the holidays? Part of me feels she needs you in her life, given her parents unfortunate lack of attention and lack of effort to provide activities for her. But another part of me says that shouldn't all be on you and her parents should be willing to pay for extended care if that's what they need.

I agree with PPs (previous posters) that GD needs more activity on the weekends (or do they do things/take her to activities later in the day?). But, IMO, the main concern is her being left unsupervised while her parents lie around in bed. Can you speak to DIL about any of this without it's causing a major battle? (You may feel it's worth the risk, of course.) Or do you think it would be better to wait till DS (dear son) comes home and talk to him?

It is so hard for you cath9 I suppose to voice an opinion as you clearly feel reluctant to sound critical, but a little girl of rising 5 should be doing more at the weekend than watching TV alone while her parents "rest"!! Most families have weekend activities which they do together although I can remember staggering round the supermarket on a Friday night to free up Saturday and then spending Sunday evening ironing DH's shirts and getting the school uniform ready for our 3DDs as well as doing my marking for school. Makes me feel tired just remembering!
But also, it seems hard for all the responsibility to fall on you, much as you enjoy your DGD's company.You already shoulder a massive burden of childcare if you go to them to look after her every day after school. Am I being too nosey to ask what sort of hours your DIL works? And have they recently come to this country, I mean, have they got too used to the availability of staff/cheap childcare?
Many school age children whose parents are still at work when school comes out would go to a childminder or perhaps an after school club if they are a bit older than 4 or 5. Have they got a "Plan B" if ever you were ill or unable to be there?
Needs thinking about.

I find this whole thing strange. As others have said it is completely unacceptable to leave a child unattended like that. Parents somehow need to know that and take it in turns to have a lie in-till about 8am-not all day though. What happens for meals? Do they need help? E.G. Why not have GD for a sleepover Friday night then?
We have new (Nigerian) friends, lovely people but such different attitudes to children. We have become friends and the Mum calls me Momma so I speak to her (kindly I hope) about the children. Mum doesn't work but was always late collecting children so youngest was always the last standing forlornly by the door with teacher. So I said you DO know finishing time? Little girl always sadly waiting. She asked if I was telling her off, we both laughed and I said yes! Much better now. Little girls runs smiling to her Mum with the rest of the children being collected.
And she and husband booked a week's holiday abroad and THEN started asking round who would have children! I was asked in front of children. I told them afterwards we did not go away on holiday without our DC until they were over 18. That seems to have worked as they've just had a lovely sunny holiday week abroad all together.
It is difficult but I do believe a child is raised 'by a village' and all have a part to play in that.

Why are the windows wired in in Tanzania? Is it to keep lions out?