Would you support the doctors' strike.

There is indeed already 24 hour care in the NHS. I think what the gov is responding to is research that has shown the higher likelihood of not surviving if an admission occurs at night or at the weekends. Whether their response makes a whit of sense is of course quite another matter.

Doctors do work unsocial hours, evening, nights and weekends. This is about trying to change what is regarded as unsociable in order to save a few pounds here and there. Or perhaps about trying to undermine the NHS itself (Anyone remember a slogan about the NHS being safe in their hands)

fullfact.org/factcheck/health/no_evidence_11000_weekend_deaths_staff_junior_doctors-48964

About your comment on weekend deaths, Lucky.

biddy73 - They did not know when they started out that one day they were going to be hit with a 20-30% pay cut. If police, fire fighters, teachers, transport workers, civil servants, bank staff, care workers.... anyone really, were told they were going to have a salary cut of any size they would walk out. Many of those listed have taken action over not getting a pay RISE. The government is relying on the fact that doctors would not take industrial action lightly and put patients at risk. If they get away with this I would imagine nurses would be next in their sights.
If we want first class healthcare then perhaps we should value those we have invested in and trained. It seems ludicrous that a newly qualified doctor, with all the responsibility that they have is paid the same for a 72 hour week as an NHS administrator working 37 hours. Or an experienced specialist registrar earning about the same as a tube driver.
What will happen is that we will lose our doctors to other countries and we will have to rely on overseas doctors who will not have been trained to the same standards.

If you have an emergency out of hours, you can go to A&E. The reason you may have to wait too long at weekends is that they are full of partygoers who have had too much to drink and often use violence against the staff. I have seen it and I don't understand how anyone should be expected to work under those conditions. But both doctors and nurses do. So yes, I will support them

Dj - thanks for the link - assuming a cause for higher deaths without confirming that this is so is clearly nonsense. To base a whole new contract on it is even worse. There may be many other reasons for the higher death rate that are unrelated to staffing levels - for instance the nature of the activities that people undertake at weekends; the prevalence of certain conditions (e.g. heart arrhythmias) to be worse at night etc.

The new contract is effectively a pay cut because of the extension of "normal" working hours that are paid at the basic rate. This is why I feel that the contract (and the way it is being sold to the public as a pay rise and an enhancement to the their safety) is misleading and devious. So what is new? - we are used to the devious nature of political speak. Sigh.

I fully understand why the "junior" doctors are upset by this.

I sympathise with the junior hospital doctors, and yes, I would support a strike, they have been allowed no negotiation, and I can think of no other 24/7 service that would accept those conditions being imposed on them.

But my worry for the NHS is primary care.

The GP workforce is aging rapidly, and the pressures, paperwork and bureacracy is driving them into retirement as soon as they can afford it. (estimate at least 25% of them gone in the next 5 years) If we don't make the job of GP a very attractive one, the situation can only get very much worse.

Many years ago, GPs were on call 24/7 every day of the year. Mercifully we moved to GP Co-operatives where they shared the responsibility between local practices. Then the Government told them they could give up OOH completely for only a £6000 pay cut - and they leapt at it, who could blame them! Now we have unsafe services triaged by non-professionanls such as 111 and vast increases in A and E attendance because if you are seriously sick over the weekend or overnight, what are you supposed to do?

Bring back properly funded co-ops run by local GPs if you want to provide a safe service, and the reduction in A and E attendances would pay for a lot of that.

What I don't understand is why we have ample applications for medical training, and only accept a tiny fraction. If the number isn't increased (which means more funding) there will be no option but to put GP services out to private companies, whose focus is naturally on profit first and foremost.

I followed the link to gov proposals , www.gov.uk/government/publications/junior-doctors-contract-offer-main-points/junior-doctors-contract-offer-main-points
Could someone tell me why this isn't in their interest? I apologise for joining in a discussion when I haven't been following the junior doctors views in the news , and relying on gransnetters to explain briefly!

It is not in their interests because it makes working 12 hours a day from 7 am to 7 pm the norm; and it cuts down the hours for which they can be paid an enhanced rate for unsocial hours. The pay "increase" does not offset this.

When people in offices are contracted to work for about 7.5 hours a day...
As I suggested above it does seem as if increased numbers are considering emigration.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-doctors-quit-nhs-protest-6790624
The profile of those admitted to hospital over the weekend is different to the profile during the working week. Therefore it makes no scientific sense to jump immediately to a "solution" that involves a major change in pay and conditions to an essential group of staff who do not have any other options other than to continue their training in the NHS or leave the country.
Try a private hospital. Consultants come in to do routine operations and go away again. Unlike the NHS, if a patient takes a serious turn for the worse in the night there are no junior doctors to look after you. The consultant has to be phoned and woken up.
I would normally be more inclined to think this initiative is incompetence, inexperience or just plain stupidity on the part of Cameron and Hunt. But given the way they behaved in the recent past...
1. Claiming the NHS was "safe in their hands" before the 2010 election
2. Initiating a major reorganisations when Cameraon had expressly ruled this out during the election campaign.
3 Sneaking through regulations that allow for the privatisation of big chunks of NHS at the last minute, after the Bill had been debated by parliament.
4. Putting billions of pounds worth of NHS England work out to private companies since then - that is billions of pounds going out of the NHS to Virgin Health etc
5. Coming up with ill thought out 24/7 proposals in the face of their 2-3% cut in NHS budget. A huge amount to money and a huge number of jobs if you think about it.
I am driven to conclude that it is neither incompetence, inexperience nor just plain stupidity - it is part of a concerted plan to undermine the NHS to such an extent that very many more people choose private health insurance.
Cameron could never have had his disabled child cared for by the private sector. They don't do that kind of thing.

think-left.org/2015/11/08/we-need-to-fight-for-the-nhs-or-it-wont-survive/

Please read this. It's not just about junior doctors, but the whole NHS.

"The NHS is on its knees and unless things change, it may not survive. It has been attacked, part privatised, demoralised and starved of funds.

We have tried to highlight what is going on; through the media, marches, speeches and endless tweets and face-book posts. But it is not working. Things are getting worse and the NHS, which we all care so much about may soon no longer, be able to care for us.

The only things which might save it is if the British public no longer just accept what is happening – but start to fight back. This is above party politics. This is about what we want our society to be like. Fight back for the greatest safety net we have – the knowledge that as a UK taxpayer if we get sick, then we will be looked after; an envy throughout the world."

Three paragraphs from it, for those who do not want to read it all.

He asks that you pass it on by facebook, etc.

Fight back. How, exactly? Sign yet another petition?

Do nothing then .

Obviously, Tegan. Then moan when the NHS disappears.
There is an e-petition on the doctor's scheme which has nearly 90,000 signatures.

I asked a serious question - so that's the answer then? Sign petitions?

What has happened to the National Health Action Party? I haven't heard anything in the news about it recently.

Luckygirl, I could have written your post ... so won't repeat.

OH also says the same about gaining the necessery experience, and also fast, confident diagnostic skills.

nhap.org/agm-conference-report-2015/

Just for you, bags.

nhap.org/deteriorating-nhs-finances-are-a-direct-result-of-this-governments-chronic-underfunding/

You can join on that page, too.

Yes I support the nurses strike too,and I would charge £5 to everybody who went to A&E !

What good would that do though ravenscroft?

If you start charging in a system that isn't really set up as a profit driven, commercial concern, I would think it would cost more money than it took in.

Personnel would have to be employed to be responsible for presenting bills and checking that they are paid, issuing receipts and keeping a tally of incoming payments and outstanding amounts. Cheques and cash would have to be paid and cash closely monitored to prevent pilfering or a more sophisticated fraud. What would happen if people didn't pay - would they be chased up? More expense.

It has crossed my mind at times that there ought to be some sort of fine to discourage people from repeatedly making appointments and then not keeping them. But, again, I'm sure it would end up being labour intensive and costly.

And often such payments or fines start off being a fairly affordable amount but they don't stay that way - as I'm sure people in controlled parking zones can testify.

Yes every few moths J Hunt says he's going to crack down on health tourism and that it will raise lots of money. I am very sceptical - for the reasons you outline and also because I don't think he has the information on which to draw conclusions. He'd only know how much money if the data was being carefully kept about the exact nationality and visa status of all patients and I would be amazed if it was.
Just part of the "lets blame the foreigners" game that the Tories are playing.

The mian culprits of health tourism are British expats btw, who are no longer entitled to the NHS but use family address, etc,