Northern Ireland and Brexit

So, it’s Westminster’s fault there’s no Northern Irish government? I’m genuinely interested as I only know what the BBC care to tell.

I live about as far away from Northern Ireland as you can get within in the UK. Few Irish come this way and those that do never talk about their homeland apart from saying the countryside is beautiful. I’ve never been there. I went to Eire once on a coach holiday (and it is beautiful) and it took two days solid travelling before we saw the Irish Sea, let alone crossed it.

Of course I voted for Brexit for my own reasons, and the situation in NI didn’t arise. Why should it? When we travel outside the UK we usually use our local airport and go via Holland. Closer and quicker. If, as occasionally happens we need to leave the airport, I need to show my passport, it’s not a problem, a quick glance at the photo, a bit of friendly chat and banter and we’re on our way. It never occurred to me that civil war would break out again if there were border checks in Ireland as I understood the IRA were no more and political discussions are now the way. Which is why I’m so puzzled as to why the Northern Irish government is still not sitting. (As a matter of further curiosity, are they still getting paid?)

Maisie has accused us who voted to leave the EU for all the underlying problems in Northern Ireland. But none of it it seems is the fault of the Irish and their inability to get on. The time line of us being in the Common Market and then the European Union does not coincide with the cessation of hostilities in Northen Ireland or the removal or reinstatement of border checks, so why would we equate the two?

But none of it it seems is the fault of the Irish and their inability to get on

Oh, bl**dy hell. I don't believe what I'm reading here.

It's not about a couple of kids having a spat in the playground, you know. It's about a deep and very longstanding sectarian divide that was actually, as Paddyanne rightly points out, caused by the English over at least 3 centuries of repression and persecution of Roman Catholics. And English attitudes that regarded the Irish as uncivilised 'natives', fit to be cannon fodder in our armies, fit to dig canals and build railways, but at the same to be despised and feared because they were 'different'. Well, they were foreigners really, weren't they? They spoke a different language and had a different religion (sounds familiar, this) and didn't behave as they should...

And you, Nfk by your apparent utter ignorance of British history manage to reduce all this to 'they don't get on with each other' and to apparently view the prospect of fresh 'Troubles' in NI as insignificant...

As all the ills of these Islands are since the dawn of time, undoubtedly 100% the fault of England, then independence and reunification for those discontents would seem to be the answer - Bring it on, what's the problem? We in evil England won't stand in your way, in fact some of us would heave a sigh of relief!

We in evil England won't stand in your way, in fact some of us would heave a sigh of relief!

Oh dear....

But Northern Ireland did NOT want to have independence from England - that is why the six counties came into being as Northern Ireland - mainly the division is on religious grounds,
Eire would quite likely be happy to see reunification of the two parts but the North still does not wish for this
Despite the treatment of the Irish people by English land owners many of them volunteered for the British Army etc in both WW1 and 2 .
If you want to see about how they were treated in the the late 1800s just look up the Potato famine!

So, when the Unionists in Northern Ireland start bombing England and Southern Ireland for "selling them out" you would be happy with that would you nigglynellie?

As Jerry Adams started not so long ago "the gunman have not gone away, they are just gone quite."

Why? If Paddyann is to be believed Scotland is desperate to leave the UK. Lots of people in NI are equally desperate to rejoin the south. After all they were for centuries one country, why not again? Scotland equally was for centuries an independent country ditto Wales, so if that's what people want, then so be it!

Apologies should be "stated" above not "started."

And quite quiet not quite.

Speech recognition not working properly this morning must reboot the phone :-)

So I waited, patiently ...

and no-one has found a workable solution. Perhaps then we can confirm the conclusion most experts have agreed on- there is none.

Now, personally- I agree that a united Ireland does seem like the perfect solution. But- as Kielty explains so well, this is NOT going to happen, not for at least 2 or 3 generations, and probably never. Go and talk to people from Omagh, or Armagh (as I have because of family ties) - and even the moderates, not the Marching Orange men types, will say NO, NEVER. Some of them, because of their business, cross over several times a day- with part of the business or farm on one side, part on the other.

But - leaving history aside, and back to Mrs May, the Conservatives, Brexit and JC. If you do not want JC as Prime Minister - then Mrs May and the Tories losing the support of the DUP - will give you JC on a silver platter at this stage. Perhaps ponder about this- but it is clear as a bell.

NFKD 'Of course I voted for Brexit for my own reasons, and the situation in NI didn’t arise. '

and of course, this is understandable. So many many issues re the consequences of Brexit were not known and not considered - no surprise there since we were given NO information, and the little we go from experts was deemed 'project fear'.

But here is the contradiction - whenever a real issue is mentionned, Brexiters say 'oh but I did not think about this at the time, or oh, but I didn't realise that, or oh I didn't know that, etc'

and yet keep saying over and over again 'but we knew exactly and clearly what we were voting for'.

So, which is it? Can't be both, sorry.

Of course I know what happened 300 years ago Maisie and about the potato famine but not the bits in between. Any more than I expect you know what was happening in East Anglia with enclosures, famines and rebellions here.

What I’m trying to explain is why I don’t know and asking why it still persists. Is the collapse of the Irish Parliament purely due to Brexit? Was us joining the EU the sole reason for peace in Ireland?

And I agree Jura about Mrs May and JC. (Although I’m probably very ignorant about this too)

The collapse of the NI Parliament is interesting NikDumpling and the story behind it is being kept very quiet. Possibly because it doesn't reflect well on the Government's best friends the DUP. It is tied in to a green enrgy scheme which seems to have been if not a deliberate then certainly an accidental scam.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cash-for-ash-arlene-foster-dup-tory-deal-energy-scandal-sinn-fein-martin-mcguinness-resign-first-a7787511.html
Arlene Foster of course claims to have no knowledge of what was going on. And it was her refusal to resign that led to the fall of the power sharing agreement
Questions over the Democratic Unionists’ handling of the overspending Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) led to the collapse of political power sharing at Stormont early last year.
The DUP’s former coalition partners Sinn Fein have refused to retake their seats around the ministerial table and endless rounds of negotiations have not persuaded them.
Mrs Foster was enterprise minister when the flawed RHI scheme was being designed.
Controls to limit the scheme’s costs were not introduced and overly generous subsidies saw the taxpayer bill spike dramatically.
Mrs Foster has contested claims by a successor minister, former party colleague Jonathan Bell, that she asked him to keep the scheme open.
After Mr Bell’s allegations were made public Mrs Foster was asked by Sinn Fein to step aside from her role as Stormont’s first minister.
When she refused the late Sinn Fein deputy first minister Martin McGuinness resigned and triggered the collapse of the devolved institutions.
So arguably the best friend of the Tory party is responsible for the collapse

Any more than I expect you know what was happening in East Anglia with enclosures, famines and rebellions here.

And why shouldn't I know about all that, Nfk?

As I lived in the East Midlands for such a long time, I'm afraid I know a lot about the wicked enclosures - I also studied the issues as part of my B.Ed.Hons Degree. Wicked times indeed.

As for not knowing about the recent period of NI/Irish history, I have to say I am just massively surprised. Did you never see or hear news about the IRA and Ulster murders- the bombs in Brimingham, the PO Tower in London, and the very recent Omagh bomb massacre, about the Orange Men and their marches, etc, etc. No need to study those to be aware of what they mean to people on both sides- who both remember friends and family targeted and murdered, and so many innocent who were mowed down in their prime. It is all VERY recent- young adult in their 40s remember it all so well, not just their parents and grandparents. If we are walking with the GC and family, my SIKL still throws himself on the ground if a car backfires - and that in leafy green Sussex.

I saw it of course. Understanding is a different matter.

Yes, I get that, of course NfkD. Having friends and family on both sides have probably helped me see just how entrenched people still are, and the reasons why. It also encouraged me to study the issues more deeply, as I just could not get my head around it at all.

Understanding is a different matter.

Are you any closer to understanding it now, Nfk?

I live it , have friends both sides and am constantly taken aback when prejudice casually raises its head , ideas seem to be imbibed with mothers milk and sane educated people still have entrenched views . I have kept my head down and tried not to take sides but I do have many bitter memories going back to the 40s when our neighbours , policemen , constantly stopped my Father , I think his Scottish accent pulled him out of some holes , then landed him in an other !

Not yet, Maisie.

I know about the green energy mess, but why haven’t they sorted it by now? Do they want to?

Watching the IRA bombers and the antagonistic marches and fighting was horrible and very confusing for me. Rather like watching the fighting between Shia and Sunni now.

Do you think Aggie that views are too entrenched? From here it does seem that many (not all) Irish don’t want peace.

Every one wants peace ! but only on their terms ..... sigh . There is a tribunal about the green energy and the opinion is that the lunatics are running the asylum . Some individuals were running green energy boilers simply to get the subsidy , the subsidy was more than the running costs .. ££ more

Watching the IRA bombers and the antagonistic marches and fighting was horrible and very confusing for me. Rather like watching the fighting between Shia and Sunni now.

That's why the history of Ireland is so significant. There are hatreds entrenched over hundreds of years involved (sadly religion plays a huge part in it even up to the present day)

Hundreds of years of entrenched positions can't be eradicated by a few years of negotiated peace. The Good Friday Agreement has given NI a breathing space but it's a precarious peace and it is seriously threatened by the possibility of an imposition of a border between NI and the ROI. For some a border check isn't showing a passport and a friendly wave through. It's memories of violence and armed soldiers at border posts and the imposition of a divide between two parts of Ireland which some NI inhabitants passionately don't want to be divided. As Keilty explains, the GFA is a 'fudge' and it's a 'fudge' that works. It suits both sides. Upsetting the equilibrium it has maintained is almost inevitably the way to stir up the Troubles again. And there is no practicable way of imposing the border that Brexit makes absolutely necessary.

Oh dear niggly Westminster will hang on to Scotland by fair means or foul ..and have .Mrs May recently stated there wont be another Scottish referendum and Corbyn swiftly followed suit.We are too valuable to them for them to let us go.The rest of the Uk has been fed the lie that we cost them money for so long that they beleive it.Look at the facts ,find the Westminster accounts from a century befoe OIL and see that we gave far more than we ever got back to the UK purse.After oil of course our contribution is massive ,even though they continue to tell us oil is running out we see almost daily the sale of yet another license to extract it from our coast.200 million just yesterday ,1.5 TRILLION according to the awful Woods who told us it would be dry in just a decade during the run up to 2014 .No Westminster will find any way they can to keep us"in our place" where they prosper from our wealth and we get poorer by the day .

its Scottish oil that underwrites the debts ,thats oil from our coastal waters even the 6000 square miles reassigned to England the night before we got devolution by Blair and Donald Dewar .

At the end of the day- whether we understand it, or agree with it- it irrelevant. It is where we are, and there is nothing we can do to change it. Unification of Ireland will not happen now, and will not be forced upon NI because of Brexit.

And therefore, there is NO solution to the Irish border- none whatsoever- and it will cause the demise of Brexit very likely. And the other fact is that if Mrs May loses more support, and has to call an election - without the support of the DUP - she, and the Conservatives with her, will be done fore.

Did anyone say Hobson's choice? I don't want JC either.