Scottish Independence

SueDonim I completely believe you! I have family up there so know what things are like. Very frustrating. As has been said in other posts there are bound to be disagreements between individuals no matter what the topic. Brexit is one example and Scottish Nationalism is another. It would be a very dull forum if all we did was agree with one another!

I, too, feel this site would be poorer without Paddyann and don't like it when people are discouraged by other GNers from expressing their views, particularly on a section entitled News and Politics. I have learned a lot on this site and it is very interesting to read other sides of an argument or to find out more. People's experiences and perceptions differ widely. I have lived and worked in the north east of England and in London, as well as all over Scotland. Geography has a lot to do with political standpoints. Diversity and tolerance are two of the best things about Gransnet when it works well.

Opal why do you think Scotland still wants to remain in the EU ? It's all about funding in case the country goes t*ts up.
Any independent country relies on backup from another source I don't know one which is fully self-sufficient.

Ha, yes, Jane10 - different opinions are what makes life interesting!

Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands (k.a. Benelux) are the oldest alliance group within the EU and were three of the original six founding members of the European Economic Community which arose from the Treaty of Rome and the Marshall plans in which the Americans encouraged and funded recovery in 16 countries, including Britain.

Benelux had, however, originated in 1944 when the three monarchies-in-exile formed a pact to help each other during wartime.

The supportive union was strengthened in 1948 and a Benelux parliament was formed in 1955, followed by the Benelux Economic Union in 1960 and the Benelux Court of Justice in 1965.

The three countries were latterly in a three-way economic unit with their own common market and customs union.

When the first six countries formed the original common market, the Benelux alliance was kept as a way of giving three wee countries a stronger voice in the mix with Germany, France and Italy.

When I was doing my Scottish "O" Grade Modern Studies in the 70s, the term Benelux was a Godsend as a memory aid for 50% of recurring exam question! Benelux is seared on my brain, unlike many other useful facts from those days which would help in pub quizzes if I could only see through the mirk.

While I agree it is not the same as the UK's alliance, it has certainly existed for ¾ of a century and has been a stable force for good among three small sovereign nations outwith and within larger economic, political and social unions like the EU.

Caledonial4 Benelux! We must have been at school at the same time. Gosh. I've not heard that word since then. It sort of sounds like a terrific washing powder. Sorry for flippancy. Good points there.

So why has paddyann suddenly left Gransnet? Am I missing something?

I remember Benelux

She is on other threads, so no I don’t think she has.

Maggiemaybe paddyann is not happy that not everyone on here shares her belief in the SNP.

I have no idea why Paddyann should say "I'm out and off the site for good." just because posters disagreed (politely) with her. Surely she is robust enough in her own opinions to survive a spot of disagreement without flouncing off? I suspect she hasn't really gone anywhere, and it was just a gesture. She'll post again.

The mind set of Scottish people is very different from that of middle and SE England. We know that the majority of voters in Scotland are left of centre and have been for generations. If we look at history the Scots, before the Union, had never instigated an Imperialist War. Fighting was either between themselves or to repel invaders, e.g. the Vikings and the English. The fallacy that Scots chose to unite with England because Scotland was bankrupt is 'Fake News'. Scotland was doing fine, trading with the low countries, exporting woollen goods, and fish, making a diverse living by tending crofts, fishing and weaving. Yes some of the nobility lost much of their wealth in the disastrous Darien fiasco, exacerbated by English and Spanish attempts to thwart and disrupt the Scots trade. These Nobles sold out the Nation for a 'handfu' o siller' and moved their familes to James 1 &V1's court in London. Ordinary Scots had no say in the matter whatsoever and indeed rioted in the streets, then found themselves at the mercy of these absent landlords and thus the Clearances began.

Henceforth, for 300 years, all revenues raised in Scotland (from oil, whisky, VAT, Income & Corporation Tax, Death duties, etc. go straight to Westminster and only such as the English dominated Westminster decides is returned to fund Services, infrastructure projects, benefits, etc. etc.

To highlight one of hundreds of injustices in this central Government system, Scotland now produces almost 100% of its electricity from renewable sources. This means that the power generated is cheaper than conventionally produced power. BUT in order to sell this power to business, homes it has to go via the national grid and there are huge fees for doing this, particularly if the electricity is produced in the north of Scotland, because the fees are graded by the DISTANCE FROM LONDON. So if you live right next to a generating windfarm in Caithness, the electricity to power your house is charged as if it had been sent to London and back via the grid.

It is not surprising that with the bulk of the voting population being relatively close to London that UK monies are spent to suit conditions there (just as Suedonim complains about, on a smaller scale, within Scotland). However, when this 'please the majority' ethos prevails in every aspect of our lives, from TV and media through 'free delivery except to the highlands and islands of Scotland' and huge funding for the London Olympics, not a penny piece for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games, to bartering fishing quotas and arbitrarily moving the sea border to ensure that some oil and gas fields were in English waters - it is time to call it quits. Democracy demands government by the people, as near to the people as possible so that local issues, concerns, conditions, needs and wishes can be heard and acted upon.

Granny23 really? So why has the SNP centralised so many of our services that were so much better run locally? The SNP centralising agenda has been a disaster for local services. Police Scotland for example?!

Wow, never realised there were so many on here with such a low opinion of we Scots...

I'm Scottish and live in Scotland. I don't have a low opinion of the Scots just a low opinion of the SNP.

Blondiescot I certainly haven't. I have a great Scotsman living above me,originally from Glasgow who's made good of his life after certain circumstances. Was in the RAF and has not long returned from a holiday in the States.
He's a brilliant neighbour to have who is very protective of me. Very reassuring.

What an interesting thread!

Jane10 Ah! Police Scotland, the much maligned punchbag of the Unionist Press. Personally speaking we now have a much improved service here with 2 instead of one named officers assigned to our village and known to most of us as they attend every meeting of the Community Council and turn up to the Gala, Remembrance Parade, the school and other Community events and meetings. The pair of them recently, after a weekend spate of robberies from cars, identified, arrested and charged the culprits within the week.

I was thinking more of the vast improvements to roads e.g. the A9 and Aberdeen, not to mention the new Forth Crossing. The Road Equivalent Tariffs on Ferries and flights to the Islands, the re-opened rail lines? What else do you hate about the SNP? Is it the tax rise for the better off to be able to give a little relief to the low paid? The mitigation of the Bedroom Tax? The Welfare fund to ease the privations of those left penniless due to the change to UC. Do you object to free tuition and (cost neutral) free prescriptions, record numbers of H & O level passes, extra free preschool provision? I could go on all night but know I would be wasting my breath fingers.

Granny23- yes you would. We clearly see a very different Scotland. School attainment plummeted, health and social care failing drastically etc I see this daily.

I agree with Jane10, centralisation of services has been dreadful for this area. Very nice for your area to have enhanced services, Granny23 but it seems as though we've been robbed to provide them.

As for roads - the A9 and A90 are hardly on a par with the roads of the Central Belt. Aberdeen is still waiting for its bypass to open, the bypass that's been talked about since just after WW2.

My dd is currently studying in Scotland but hopes to move to England when she's finished because she doesn't want to live in a parochial backwater, which is how she sees Scotland. There are bigger and better opportunities for her there.

That's the point SueDonim Successive governments at Westminster and more recently at Holyrood have done nothing about it since WW2. It has taken an SNP Government to make a start on all these much needed infrastructure projects.

Jane 10 I forgot to add that you cannot blame the SNP for the "crumbling school estate" as these school were built by Labour controlled Councils and SG using the now discredited PPI , which the SNP eschews. Also more Social Housing built in 1 year under the SNP than in the entire time we had Labour/Liberal control of the SG.

It's been almost 20 years since Scotland was devolved, Granny. I have no more faith in the SNP than I do in a Scots government of any other flavour to deliver for the remote and rural parts of Scotland.

And what about the deterioration in the NHS, social care and educational achievement in Scotland under the SNP, as Jane10 raised? It's a disgrace.

Er how about maintenance for school buildings? How about filling teaching vacancies? Curriculum for Excellence is unworkable etc etc etc. That's just education.

I agree with SueDonim and Jane10. I have lived in the NE of Scotland (where the leader of the SNP in Westminster also lost his seat) for thirty four years and I am no closer to understanding the mindset of the SNP than I ever was. Not liking and not agreeing with the SNP is not the same thing as not like Scotland or the Scots!

Can I turn the original Question on its head and ask - Why did 38% of the electorate in Scotland happily vote to come out of the EU (which controls a miniscule amount of our laws and finances) but are happy to remain in Union with the rest of the UK which dictates which controls most of our finances, benefits, laws, etc. etc.?

And as a supplemental question, "What has the Westminster Parliament done to improve the infrastructure and lives of people in more rural areas?"

My own thought on the issue of lack of services in rural areas is that you pays your money and makes your choice. There are many benefits to living in a rural location - the sense of community, the clean air, the easy access to countryside, opportunity to 'grow your own' fruit and veg. the automatic enrollment of children in their local primary school. On the downside, rural dwellers have to accept that there will not be a Police, Fire and Ambulance service based nearby, secondary school pupils will have to travel to school, as will everybody to access Hospitals, Banks, Chiropodists, theatres and the like and will be faced with a dearth of public transport. This situation will prevail wherever you are in the UK or indeed the world.

Urban or Rural - It is entirely your choice where you want to live and work.