Julie Bindel, new book - feminism for women, the route to freedom. Interviewed by Emma Barnett on women’s hour today

I think feminism DOES centre women. But in the same way Black Lives Matters welcomes support from other ethnicities, if they support the movement, feminism can also welcome support from other genders. BLM white supporters don't need to claim to be black. They just support the struggles of those that face discrimination because they're black. No, people that have lived their entire lives as men don't know the struggles women go through. But they can accept what they have been told and what they have witnessed and support the feminist movement.

GagaJo

I think feminism DOES centre women. But in the same way Black Lives Matters welcomes support from other ethnicities, if they support the movement, feminism can also welcome support from other genders. BLM white supporters don't need to claim to be black. They just support the struggles of those that face discrimination because they're black. No, people that have lived their entire lives as men don't know the struggles women go through. But they can accept what they have been told and what they have witnessed and support the feminist movement.

if they support the movement, feminism can also welcome support from other genders Yes support from the other sex, not take over, dictate the terms, lead from the front. What if a white person wanted to be at the forefront of the BLM movement, because they believed what they'd been told and witnessed, you'd be applauding that or would you think a black person could probably represent the movement better?

No, people that have lived their entire lives as men don't know the struggles women go through. so this will also apply to adult transitioning transwomen too. Good that you think this, it's the argument many of us have made.

Which man is at the forefront of the feminist movement?

No, I disagree about trans women as you know. So please don't try to force me into your 'acceptable' box.

We were talking about leaders of the feminist movement. NOT trans women being feminists. You are combining two totally different discussions and I am ONLY talking about feminism.

GagaJo

I think feminism DOES centre women. But in the same way Black Lives Matters welcomes support from other ethnicities, if they support the movement, feminism can also welcome support from other genders. BLM white supporters don't need to claim to be black. They just support the struggles of those that face discrimination because they're black. No, people that have lived their entire lives as men don't know the struggles women go through. But they can accept what they have been told and what they have witnessed and support the feminist movement.

This is a good point. Feminists should welcome support from other genders as long as they are really prioritising women. Nowadays it seems to be usual for feminism to support others, and this support means prioritising other groups rather than women.

^No, people that have lived their entire lives as men don't know the struggles women go through.^

I am at a complete loss as to how this can be a statement applicable only to an area you choose, but invalid in other areas? I thought statements were statements with a set meaning not infinitely variable ones.

Rosie51, any writer knows, their words can be interpreted in a multiplicity of ways. All writers give up control of one specific denotation of meaning the moment their words enter the public sphere. This is a basic tenet of literary analysis.

You know my stance on transwomen from previous threads. I reiterate, do not try to force me into the boxes you approve of.

I'm happy to enter discussion but in the same way I don't tell you what you think, do not try to tell me what I think.

My feminism does centre women. Including trans women.

AmberSpyglass is this statement related to the discussion about men being, or not being, feminists?

AmberSpyglass

I am a die hard feminist and dislike her intensely. My feminism has always and will always include trans women.

Amber you've said on a number of previous threads "a transwoman is a woman" almost as a mantra, and on a couple of occasions I've asked you, does that include those who have a penis?

You didn't respond - which of course is your right.

I've worked with two fully-transitioned women and one who was in the process and fully accept they are entitled to be referred to as women. What I will not ever accept is someone who is 'self-identifying' is a woman.

I'm a fan of Julie Bindel.

And anywhere I encounter feminism, it does centre women. Certainly, we all move in different circles, but where I am, feminism = women.

The last feminist event I helped organise was for girls/women about women's literature. Boys/men were welcome but the focus was on the depiction of women and women's experience in literature.

Well if we are going to discuss if men can be feminist or not let's get down to some realities. Who would you say was a feminist? Tony Benn or Margaret Thatcher. The one campaigned throughout his life for equality and fairness in all aspects, he believed in human rights, in protection for the poor, in peaceful negotiation and was against war. All feminist ideas.. The other although she was the first woman PM and might have furthered the cause of women chose instead to support the patriachy, destroyed a society which supported the poor, glorified war and generally behaved like a token man. So who was the feminist?
Oh and Benn was responsible for commemorating Emily Wilding Davisons protest in the H of C by providing and installing a plaque to her.

I think it's pretty silly to squabble about whether a man can be regarded as a feminist, just because he's not a woman.
As trisher says, if a man is supporting feminist aims then he is a feminist.
I take JB's point, tho, about men being in leadership positions in feminist organisations.

Sorry Tony Benn was many things and did campaign politically for women but if you read his diaries its plain to see he wasnt a feminist. Many many women atent feminists either.

Rosie51, any writer knows, their words can be interpreted in a multiplicity of ways. All writers give up control of one specific denotation of meaning the moment their words enter the public sphere. This is a basic tenet of literary analysis.

It's a fairly basic tenet of post-structural lit criticism, but not of lit criticism in any sort of general way. And as this is not a literary discussion but one about feminism, I have no idea what relevance it has to what we are talking about.

Anyway.

I agree 100% that Thatcher was not remotely feminist and that Benn was an all round Good Egg, but I would describe the ideals you describe as socialist, rather than feminist.

Is it possible for a capitalist to be feminist? As it avoids personalities, that is a better question, I think, and I'm not at all sure of the answer. It is possible, probably, but I'm not sure that you can easily separate economics from sociology.

If a society is based on an private ownership and profit, someone who supports levelling the playing field for workers who are likely to have children is working against the profit motive, unless they also believe in socialist ideals of fairness and shared responsibility, in which case yes, they would see the benefit of creches and maternity leave etc, even if only insofar as they help to retain workers and encourage loyalty to the company. So, that suggests that a capitalist can also be a socialist (of sorts), but is the feminism connected to the capitalism or the socialism in the equation? I'm no wiser than when I started?

No she didnt behave like a token man, Thatcher behaved like a woman who had different views to you. Not views I agreed with but the notion that this makes her a token man isnt one I agree with either.

My feminism includes women that I dont agree with.

Doodledog, given that no reader is able to enter into the interiority of the writer, the reader interprets in their own way. Which is pretty much what I've said. It IS my occupation and all the study I've done to date amounts to that. Fair enough if you have a different opinion. But I DO know my stuff in relation to Eng Lit.

Anyway, the crux of the matter was that Rosie chose to make a different interpretation of my words and to tell me I believed something different to my actual belief system. Which is where the discussion about interpretation of the multiplicity of written meanings came in. As I'm SURE you know but just want to make a point of being awkward due to our previous disagreements.

It'd really be good if we could JUST enter into this thread and the topic of it, without dragging other topics in. Not an issue or a problem discussing other things, but they'd be better off in named threads.

Riverwalk Yes, I absolutely 100% believe that trans women are women regardless of their genitalia. Women can have penises. Men can have vaginas. It’s not complicated.

Agree AmberSpyglass. I've known some of each.

I’ve lost track of this already. If Mr Benn was supporting equality and fairness where would he stand on what’s going on now, where anyone can say they’re a woman and decide what they’re entitled to on the basis of that statement.
Nothing is ever fair to everyone. What would he see as fairness to women?
Did Maggie T say she was a feminist? I didn’t agree with all she did, but she took a lot of flack for being a woman.

GagaJo
You seem to be telling me what my motives were, and you'd be wrong, actually - I am interested in the idea of the Death of the Author. It was something I studied at University, and has been superseded by other theories which are equally interesting. It might well make an interesting subject for a different thread if enough other people are interested, but it has nothing to do with this one, which is all I was saying.

Women can have penises. Men can have vaginas. It’s not complicated.
I accept that transwomen can have penises, and transmen vaginas, but come on.

It would be refreshing to have a debate about anything to do with women that doesn't have to be dominated by trans issues. We'll have disappeared as a recognised sex altogether before long if this keeps up, which has, I suppose, been the motive for some time.

I (very briefly) considered signing up for a course in gender studies recently, but I strongly suspect that I would be at screaming point by half way through the first module. I don't know anyone working in that subject area, but it must be all but impossible these days.

Do any GNers or their contacts have any inside information?

Male people are not women.
Female people are not men.
It's not complicated.

(I don't know why some people seem to be confused about this.)

I did a bit of gender studies at university, at under grad level. I thought it would be about gender, but it was women's studies really. Almost consciousness raising group stuff. I have to be honest, it bored me rigid. I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember, so it was a bit like going back to basics for me.

What surprised me was that there were quite a few blokes in there too though. Who were MUCH more in line with the subject matter than I was. It wasn't a required course, so I can only assume they were there out of interest.

"it would be refreshing to have a debate about anything to do with women that doesn't have to be dominated by trans issues."

Yes it would.

A young mother of two children was strangled to death by a man who can't even remember doing it. The man was sentenced to four years and eight months. Why is this so less important than the feelings of trans women.

The op was about whether men could be feminists, not whether they can be women. That is a different discussion. That discussion does not have to take over every single debate about women.

Not complicated that women can have penises?

I'd say it's very complicated.

A penis is not just like any other appendage e.g. finger or earlobe, it's usually accompanied by testes and male hormones.

I believe that men can be feminists but I don't think they should tell other feminists how to think or behave.