Biological men in woman only spaces

Of course it isn't a seperate issue. If you keep insisting there are tons of men around dressing as women to access women's spaces you raise ideas in women's heads. They start to look more closely at the people in that space and the people they criticise and scrutinise are those women who veer more towards masculine looks- the butch lesbian. By all means have views about this but don't pretend that there aren't any negative consequences for some women.

21 posts in.
Trisher, why are you bringing butch lesbians into this?
Where has it been reported?
Why would anyone know they were lesbian, butch or otherwise?
If it’s true then it’s an issue that needs dealing with but once again trans rights are being dragged in by you, with an additional derailment.
Self ID may have been intended for the reason you give, but it has been used by people with a different purpose and is contributing to the erosion of women’s rights and this has been made worse by people refusing to see that this is a problem.

There are far more negative consequences for all women than there are for butch lesbians, purely on the basis of numbers, and it is not reasonable to expect all women to stay silent because of that.

If it is the case that butch lesbians are also suffering as a result of this aspect of self id (and lesbians in general suffer when TRAs insist that any refusal to have sex with them amounts to transphobia) then they are yet another reason why the whole issue needs to be discussed and debated without women being shut down (and shut up).

Here we go again.

More moral panic based on almost nothing. I'm amazed some people are brave enough to leave the house these days.

Well done GJ. You waited til 27 posts before you made a non-comment.

Because I'm rarely on here MG. It's like groundhog day.

The incident we are talking about is a convicted sex offender exposing himself in front of a child. But yes we should definitely take the piss out of people for that.

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
I know she won't matter of course because she works for Stonewall.
Personally I think any restrictions on anyone's appearance is wrong and the sort of fear mongering being promoted by threads like this is really far more frightening than any trans rights legislation.

I live in a seaside town and all our toilets have been or are being changed. The old gotty blocks are going and the toilets are unisex but are all proper brick built with good solid doors and opening straight onto the pavement or prom. Some people don't like them but I think they are much better. If you went into the old blocks it could feel quite intimidating as if you went in at a quiet time you could feel vulnerable, how could you know who was lurking in one of the cubicles and the cubicles were flimsy. Much better now.

And yet again we are back to toilets which could be solved easily. But the issues of refuges and sport and prison not so much.

Bridgeit

Perhaps now is the time to add ‘ spaces ‘ ‘ toilets etc for those who identify as ‘non specific’ or the undecided.
Unfortunately public toilets rarely feel safe , especially at night or in less busy places.

I agree the old style toilets didn't feel safe and as for schools the toilet block was a terrifying place for any child who had experienced bullying. The new schools with individual toilets opening straight onto corridors are far safer but many people immediately object as they are unisex.

If you keep insisting there are tons of men around dressing as women to access women's spaces you raise ideas in women's heads

Oh my giddy aunt trisher, the very last thing we want is for women to get ideas in their heads isnt it? A far better idea is to tell the little wimmin nothing at all, so that they don't get all over excited and start having independent thoughts about who they want to share their safe spaces with.
And what on earth have "butch lesbians" to do with men with a penis? Don't you know anything about lesbianism?

Galaxy

And yet again we are back to toilets which could be solved easily. But the issues of refuges and sport and prison not so much.

Well the OP opened this talking about toilets, most of us will us public toilets while a minority will use refuges, or go to prison. People don't have to do sport, they do have to use toilets.

We should show concern about things that may not directly affect us though surely, I dont want women in prison to be raped even if I myself may never go to prison. I think it's quite important to take part in sport to be honest.

Galaxy

We should show concern about things that may not directly affect us though surely, I dont want women in prison to be raped even if I myself may never go to prison. I think it's quite important to take part in sport to be honest.

Including toilets doesn't mean we can't discuss other things but you don't think toilets are worth discussing despite the fact that most (all) of us use them at time and the change to unisex toilets does worry people. Being realistic about the advantages and reassuring people is a good thing isn't it? Or is there an agenda where we can't be positive about any changes that take away "safe" spaces for women although realistically the old public toilets were far from safe.

The study I have seen for changing room showed 2/3 of sexual assaults took place in unisex changing rooms, so they were much more risky than single sex facilities. I dont know if any studies have been done on toilets but wonder what the results would be and if it would be different. If toilets are individual cubicles with door to floor and sink inside , similar to disabled toilets then I think most people would be happy with that. But it's also not up to me to tell other women what they should be comfortable with.

Galaxy

The study I have seen for changing room showed 2/3 of sexual assaults took place in unisex changing rooms, so they were much more risky than single sex facilities. I dont know if any studies have been done on toilets but wonder what the results would be and if it would be different. If toilets are individual cubicles with door to floor and sink inside , similar to disabled toilets then I think most people would be happy with that. But it's also not up to me to tell other women what they should be comfortable with.

Our new toilets are basically like disabled toilets, brick built, solid wooden doors and a sink. They also open onto pavement or prom so no coming out of a flimsy cubicle into a communal area secluded from passersby.

Plenty of people tell women what they should be comfortable with and in this case it seems to be other women, haven't seen anything about men complaining. I can't see how they could possibly be more dangerous than the old ones.

Did the study describe the changing rooms? Were they the ones with a flimsy curtains? I am assuming they weren't a communal unisex changing room. Neither would be anything like the same thing as the toilets I described.

Well no men wouldnt complain because the risk to them is less of course.
I dont think women are saying what other women should be comfortable with I think they are saying what they are uncomfortable with. So it's great if you for example are happy with those toilets but that doesnt mean that other womens discomfort (as you mentioned) doesnt count.

trisher

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
I know she won't matter of course because she works for Stonewall.
Personally I think any restrictions on anyone's appearance is wrong and the sort of fear mongering being promoted by threads like this is really far more frightening than any trans rights legislation.

trisher what an offensive opening sentence, the intention to insult and goad is obvious. Some of us think everybody matters, including those for whom separation from men is required/desired in certain circumstances. I have never encountered anyone being hostile towards a butch lesbian in the toilets but I won't deny it happens.
From the article you link to While a transperson’s right to use a toilet according to their gender is protected under the Equality Act Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics of the equality act, not self-proclaimed gender identity which is the clear implication Stonewall like to promote, and the lazy media can't be bothered to check.
Some of us think the safety, comfort and privacy of biological women matters even though you don't.

Rosie51

trisher

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
I know she won't matter of course because she works for Stonewall.
Personally I think any restrictions on anyone's appearance is wrong and the sort of fear mongering being promoted by threads like this is really far more frightening than any trans rights legislation.

trisher what an offensive opening sentence, the intention to insult and goad is obvious. Some of us think everybody matters, including those for whom separation from men is required/desired in certain circumstances. I have never encountered anyone being hostile towards a butch lesbian in the toilets but I won't deny it happens.
From the article you link to While a transperson’s right to use a toilet according to their gender is protected under the Equality Act Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics of the equality act, not self-proclaimed gender identity which is the clear implication Stonewall like to promote, and the lazy media can't be bothered to check.
Some of us think the safety, comfort and privacy of biological women matters even though you don't.

Rosie51 Stonewall have so often been criticised and condemned on these threads it really isn't worth mentioning them.
It's a pity all you can find in that article is one sentence where the reporter has got things wrong. I found quite frightening and disturbing information about how a woman is supposed to look

What I find totally illogical about all the arguments on transwomen using women's toilets and changing rooms is the fact that it doesn't actually solve any problem. It creates more.
So if transwomen are not to use women's facilities and have to use men's it is therefore logical and fair that transmen should use women's. So there will be people who look and present as men using women's toilets and changing rooms, which means that any predatory male wanting to enter such places is saved all the trouble of having to dress up as a woman. He can just walk in as a transman.

It's a pity all you can find in that article is one sentence where the reporter has got things wrong.
I think it's a pity that Stonewall amongst others constantly push the false assertion that gender identity is a protected characteristic. I'm not at all sure I believe the account, it seems likely it's exaggerated. Much of what Stonewall puts out is a stranger to the truth, perhaps she has an agenda too?
We'll deal with the transman in the toilets as and when. Or we could have male, female and mixed sex facilities for transpeople and anyone else who was comfortable with them. If the majority of people aren't bothered the single sex facilities will be so underused as to become unnecessary.

As I said why bother to mention Stonewall- she works for them so it couldn't have happened. If you can't see the dangers in proscribing what women should look like it is a great pity. Especially as I see on the city streets more and more people who are challenging gender norms.

Incidently transmen may be in the toilets now. You wouldn't know would you? and don't you believe they are women anyway so why would they need "dealing" with?

What risk do you think transmen pose to men in a male facility? No more than a biological man, surely, and usually less.

Again, we are seeing your feeling about women shine through the ‘trans rights’ concerns. We shouldn’t discuss things that might scare us, and heaven forbid that we ‘raise ideas’, never mind consciousness.

I don’t know what you mean by it not being worth mentioning Stonewall. Wasn’t it you that mentioned it in relation to the butch lesbian diversion?

Really Doodledog your obsession with misquoting or misattributing things to me is showing. I don't care which toilets transmen use anymore than I care which toilets transwomen use. I'm perfectly open to anyone using any facility they are comfortable in. I have used men's loos when the queue at the ladies was too long and nothing happened to me or any of the other women who did it.
My commitment to women and women's causes remains as strong as it always has been. I simply don't see transpeople as the enemy nor do I see any organisation promoting transrights as an enemy.
And keep up I said the butch lesbian's fears wouldn't be acknowledged because she worked for Stonewall and guess what? I was right!!!

I'm simply applying a little logic to the scaremongering and absolute unsubstantiated nonsense posted on these threads.

One thing does interest me. Why is it OK for a child to see a naked female body but not a male one? Many years ago when I was at art college male life models were required to wear a thing which concealed their private parts. Women of course were not. I always understood it to be part of the Victorian belief that women were too delicate to withstand the sight of a penis.We campaigned against it of course and all life models are now naked. But isn't it interesting that it seems the same now applies to children?