Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

Casdon

I stand by what I said Glorianny. You don’t listen when people put opposing points of view, even when backed up by facts. You and I had a detailed discussion on this thread about the privatisation of the NHS, and you did not hear anything I said, but kept posting information which didn’t support your case. That is one of the pledges. You haven’t understood my comment about your Nirvana either. The reality is that the majority of the voting public don’t share your means of getting to a fairer society, and you are unable to see that you have to take them with you if you want to achieve any part of your objectives.

I heard what you said Casdon and posted why I disagreed with it. Which I assume I am entitled to do. I'd willingly listen to any comments about what won't work, what you don't want or indeed what you do want. My earlier post set out clearly what I would want a Labour government to do and what I believe the Labour party should commit to. I don't think anyone can take any of the voting public with them if they don't say clearly what they do want. So I suppose that is something you and Starmer have in common. You never say what you actually want or what you will do. You just tell others they are wrong.

I stand by what I said Glorianny. You don’t listen when people put opposing points of view, even when backed up by facts. You and I had a detailed discussion on this thread about the privatisation of the NHS, and you did not hear anything I said, but kept posting information which didn’t support your case. That is one of the pledges. You haven’t understood my comment about your Nirvana either. The reality is that the majority of the voting public don’t share your means of getting to a fairer society, and you are unable to see that you have to take them with you if you want to achieve any part of your objectives.

Glorianny's idea of a decent society looks pretty normal and achievable to me.

Casdon

What I think Glorianny is that you aren’t for whatever reason able to see the need for a translation of your beliefs into the real world. You don’t listen to, and therefore don’t hear what you perceive as ‘unpure’ views about how to make society fairer.
If you reread just this thread with a more open mind you would see that all the people you are in constant disagreement with want a fairer society too, but are more pragmatic about the means to reach it, realising that the only way forward is through compromise. It’s fine living in your own personal Nirvana, but it is very lonely if nobody else wants to live there.

There we are again. Criticism of my views but no actual comments about what you would drop or what you want. That's my problem with the "centre left" you simply don't know what they stand for.
Any ideas about what you'd leave out of my "Nirvana" Casdon How would you achieve this fairer society without any of the things I believe in?

What I think Glorianny is that you aren’t for whatever reason able to see the need for a translation of your beliefs into the real world. You don’t listen to, and therefore don’t hear what you perceive as ‘unpure’ views about how to make society fairer.
If you reread just this thread with a more open mind you would see that all the people you are in constant disagreement with want a fairer society too, but are more pragmatic about the means to reach it, realising that the only way forward is through compromise. It’s fine living in your own personal Nirvana, but it is very lonely if nobody else wants to live there.

I see no attempt to discuss politics as I was told I never do. Just another rant about the fact that I swear (naughty granny!!!) and I condemn Starmer because he lied.
I really have no idea what your political beliefs are DaisyAnne. Mine are pretty simple.
I don't think anyone should be making millions from poor people who can't afford to heat their houses, so I support non-profit making public ownership.
I think food, clean water, heat and a decent place to live are the very least any civilised society should provide for its citizens.
I think health care should be provided by the NHS and not by private companies who can only be in it to make profits.
I think the railways should be owned by the British people and not be paying profits into other countries.
I think Trade Unions are fighting a battle against a system which we thought we had seen the last of in the 1930s. That is no job security, temporary and agency workers, paid the absolute minimum, and zero hours contracts the norm. I think they need to be able to act to prevent this happening.
I think education needs a huge investment because it has ceased to function properly.
I think a green agenda is vital for our grandchildren.
And these are the policies I expect from a Labour party.
I don't think they are far-left. They are sensible policies which might prevent the steady slide into conditions the Victorians would recognise for poorer people.

I see Rachel Reeves as an asset
It’s good to see her in interviews

Well it was Rachel Reeves that said she was glad that left leaning people had left the Labour party.

Good post DaisyAnn
The moral high ground, the inability to discuss without dismissing others is regularly on display from momentum supporters.
Like IMG, SWP they don’t influence anyone but each other

Glorianny

DaisyAnne if you stopped trying to take the higher ground for a moment and actually addressed the contents of my posts instead of trying to dismiss them as "anti-Starmer" you will find plenty of politics.
There's the question of Starmer's ten pledges for instance. At the core of politics and what Labour stands for. He's already abandoned 3 of them.
Let's discuss No 5
Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
I think he no longer agrees with this (1 pledge broken)
I support that pledge, so do most LP members, so do a lot of the British public
Next No 7
Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions
Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.
Shoulder to shoulder? He won't even acknowledge the railway workers right to strike!
There's two bits of Starmer evasions for you to deal with. That is politics. Calling people who support. and defend those ideas far-left is just name calling.
(We can do the third one later!)

But you overwhelm your posts with "I hate Starmer" style comments. I do not have to "respect" the fact that you swear. I do not swear at you and I have done nothing that would allow for such a personal attack. Now you are insisting we discuss your narrow interests. What have you done that would make me remain interested in discussing this with you?

Is it the point of your part of the Labour Party to tell others that you do not want their vote, as you did above; to go and join another party? Is that what your branch of the party wants? Does it have to be a party unblemished by degrees of different thinking that can never win an election and will, eventually comprise potty-mouthed peopled dwindling to numbers that just make them an irritant.

Because that is the only message I am getting from you.

DaisyAnne if you stopped trying to take the higher ground for a moment and actually addressed the contents of my posts instead of trying to dismiss them as "anti-Starmer" you will find plenty of politics.
There's the question of Starmer's ten pledges for instance. At the core of politics and what Labour stands for. He's already abandoned 3 of them.
Let's discuss No 5
Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.
I think he no longer agrees with this (1 pledge broken)
I support that pledge, so do most LP members, so do a lot of the British public
Next No 7
Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions
Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.
Shoulder to shoulder? He won't even acknowledge the railway workers right to strike!
There's two bits of Starmer evasions for you to deal with. That is politics. Calling people who support. and defend those ideas far-left is just name calling.
(We can do the third one later!)

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Ilovecheese

You Starmer supporters certainly know how to make left leaning people feel welcome and appreciated.

I would call myself left-leaning or centre-left. I imagine Starmer will appeal to others in those positions. I should add a caveat - we are not there yet. Those trying to destroy what is a valid attempt to bring the Labour Party to power are on the far-left of the party. The balance, if you will, to the ERG and Johnson.

It doesn't really matter if you are far left (I'm not) or centre left, when it comes to a GE the LP will have no money to fight and a leader who the press will vilify showing examples of promises he has made and broken. It isn't difficult to find them. He will be for many a true example of the politicians they have condemned as westminster elitist liars.
Where's the "valid attempt to bring the LP to power' there?

I don't agree with you that should Starmer lead a Labour Party into the next election the Unions will not back him. They may feel it is worth trying to move the Labour Party toward one that allows the Unions to be the driver; they have been doing that ever since its inception. However, that is what turns me and other non-member, centre or centre-left voters away from voting Labour. I would call that attitude very far-left as it appears people with these views want the county run by the unions and I find that undemocratic. Those leading the unions know they have to be pragmatic when we come to an election or they will get nothing in spite of the ranting we are subjected to.

I do not agree with your view of Starmer. Others may agree to a greater or lesser degree. To get into government each of the larger parties requires all the votes they can get from outside their natural base as well as within it. What is the point of being a party if you don't try and secure power?

Personal attacks on politicians turn people away (as do personal attacks on posters). If you could stop the rants against Starmer we could then talk about politics. If you can't, there is probably no point in trying to discuss this with you.

Thank goodness Starmer is showing some backbone. He is the leader and it’s all about discipline and leadership. Something Johnson completely lacks.

Glorianny

Iam64

Glorianny, who would you prefer as leader.
It seems there may be calls for a vote of no confidence at conference in September
I like Lisa Nandy, Wes Streeting and others but, I see no point in a leadership campaign

I think Lisa Nandy would be a good leader. She's young , talented, committed and a woman!!!
As far as those who claim to be centre left go, why don't you join the Lib Dems a party which seems much closer to your ideals? Then Labour could become the party it should be. Oh hang on it's obvious why you don't. The Lib Dems is a washed out wreck of a party that is failing. And that seems to be the route many of you want to drag the Labour Party along as well.

We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down.
^Aneurin Bevan^

I did join the LibDems because of their stance regarding brexit. And look what happened. Of course, Lisa Nandy was one of the Labour MP’s who said straight away that the referendum result had to be respected unlike many others who questioned the validity of a vote won by lying to the electorate. What a horrible thing to say about the LibDems. They were a great bunch of people unlike the far left in my constituency party who made me feel unwelcome and who may do the same again now that I’ve rejoined.

Iam64

I don’t know anyone from what’s generally seen as the left who voted for Starmer. My CLP’s left group wanted Rebecca Long Bailey

I am left leaning. I voted for Starmer. I was willing to compromise. I believed what he said when he wanted the leadership.
I believed he would keep to the direction of his pledges, if not to the letter.
I believed he would try and unite the party.
I feel a fool now.

Iam64

Glorianny, who would you prefer as leader.
It seems there may be calls for a vote of no confidence at conference in September
I like Lisa Nandy, Wes Streeting and others but, I see no point in a leadership campaign

I think Lisa Nandy would be a good leader. She's young , talented, committed and a woman!!!
As far as those who claim to be centre left go, why don't you join the Lib Dems a party which seems much closer to your ideals? Then Labour could become the party it should be. Oh hang on it's obvious why you don't. The Lib Dems is a washed out wreck of a party that is failing. And that seems to be the route many of you want to drag the Labour Party along as well.

We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down.
Aneurin Bevan

There was an interesting programme on Radio 4 this morning at 09.00, The Long view. Well worth a listen as it looked at the position taken by Ramsey McDonald during the General Strike and Kinnock during the Winter of Discontent. I think it explains the position KS is taking and why.

Glorianny, who would you prefer as leader.
It seems there may be calls for a vote of no confidence at conference in September
I like Lisa Nandy, Wes Streeting and others but, I see no point in a leadership campaign

DaisyAnne

Ilovecheese

You Starmer supporters certainly know how to make left leaning people feel welcome and appreciated.

I would call myself left-leaning or centre-left. I imagine Starmer will appeal to others in those positions. I should add a caveat - we are not there yet. Those trying to destroy what is a valid attempt to bring the Labour Party to power are on the far-left of the party. The balance, if you will, to the ERG and Johnson.

It doesn't really matter if you are far left (I'm not) or centre left, when it comes to a GE the LP will have no money to fight and a leader who the press will vilify showing examples of promises he has made and broken. It isn't difficult to find them. He will be for many a true example of the politicians they have condemned as westminster elitist liars.
Where's the "valid attempt to bring the LP to power' there?

Ilovecheese

You Starmer supporters certainly know how to make left leaning people feel welcome and appreciated.

I would call myself left-leaning or centre-left. I imagine Starmer will appeal to others in those positions. I should add a caveat - we are not there yet. Those trying to destroy what is a valid attempt to bring the Labour Party to power are on the far-left of the party. The balance, if you will, to the ERG and Johnson.

I don’t know anyone from what’s generally seen as the left who voted for Starmer. My CLP’s left group wanted Rebecca Long Bailey

MayBee70

Keir spent a lot of time helping the unions legally before he entered politics. Why are they so opposed to him now? Is it because some people can’t stomach the thought of a Labour leader that a traditional Conservative voter might vote for?

Each party needs votes out of the base while we have FPTP. So I think you may have got something there Maybe

Iam64

Starmer is the LP’s best hope. He isn’t destroying it, he’s attempting the impossible, to get the ‘left’ to compromise, you know, that filthy word that might just mean we don’t have 12 more years of the tories.

I live in the north west. Houses worth 1million aren’t the norm here. I’m visiting good pals in south Manchester tomorrow, 12 mikes away, their house, bought the same tine as mine, is worth 850,000. They got Labour, worked in public service, should they be dismissed because the value of their house increased so much more than mine.
I’m waiting for someone to find a criticism of Starmer that means something

The left compromised when they voted for Starmer. He promised to unite the party.
He made ten pledges which I posted a link to. He hasn't kept those pledges. He supported lecturers when they were on strike but won't support the railway workers. He hasn't committed to no more privatisation of the NHS. He won't commit to taking utilities and the railways back to non-profit making concerns. Exactly how much "compromise" is acceptable before it becomes absolutely obvious that this is a leader who will say one thing and do another. If it comes to a GE all of his past promises will be used to show how duplicitous he is. And you still believe he could win????

Ilovecheese

You Starmer supporters certainly know how to make left leaning people feel welcome and appreciated.

It works all ways doesn’t it

I left our local Labour Party because I was never left wing enough for them. I have now rejoined.