Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

Galaxy

Wyllow I believe people cant change sex, I believe single sex spaces are protected under the equality act, this is not transphobia, it's a protected belief.

You can believe whatever you like Galaxy but your belief does not mean you are permitted to impose your beliefs on others.
And yes single sex spaces are protected by law.
Every other judgement we make about people in life is made on a gender not a sex basis. We actually know very few people's sex.

By imposing a belief do you mean expressing it because I am afraid that yes I can do that.

In the same way you cant impose the belief that TWAW on me but of course you can express it. It's the same for both of us.

From that itv news report :

^"Authors found the "baseless and concerning credibility" these views had been given was "at the expense of both trans people’s civil liberties and women’s and children’s rights" in the country."

What is meant by that?
How are women's and children's rights being damaged?

"They pointed to UK hate crime statistics which show a sharp increase in transphobic crimes since 2015 – though only one in seven victims report them to an authority."

What is meant here, by hate crimes?
Are 'crimes' of misgendering or seeing stickers being counted as equivalent to physical violence?

Glorianny
Apparently none of that matters. People don't seem too understand that blaming transpeople for the actions of a few individuals creates a culture which breeds transphobia
Who blames all transpeople for the actions of the few?
You keep saying that, but who is it you are talking about?

What can be seen on here is people blaming the few TiM whose actions harm, endanger or distress females. You and others refuse to see that.

What you also see is people pointing out what impact the actions of those TiM I mentioned above and the TRA who attack female groups in the name of supporting trans has on the public perception of transpeople and THAT is what breeds the transphobia you mention.

It doesn’t matter how you dress it up, the people causing most transphobia are the harmful TiM and the violent TRA supporters,
not the females trying to retain the rights that those TiM and their supporters, are claiming for themselves.

I'm sure you all have a response. You always do.

More gaslighting. Blaming someone for responding, rather than listening to what they have to say and responding on equal terms. Avoiding expressing an opinion of your own, but at the same time belittling the opinions of others. Patronising and condescending others, but accusing them of doing that to you.

In other words, sabotaging attempts at discussion but not moving it forward in any way - in fact impeding any progress. I accept that these discussions rarely move forward very much, but at least we try, on both sides of the argument.

Nobody here is "moving the argument on". Nobody here is impeding any progress either. How , on earth is anybody impeding progress by just saying "I'm not taking part?"ut women like me who just don't see what the fuss is about

Sorry, pressed send too early because I'm so cross.

Women like me who just don't see what the fuss is about get told were gaslighting others and impeding progress. That we're patronising and condescending.

I've often thought this before, but never said it. I might get banned, who knows. Who cares. There are a lot of people in this debate who will not accept different views or even, no views at all, and think the world is against them. So other people who try to not get engaged in the interminable parade of acronyms and exclusionary language, but try to take a middle ground, are just described as condescending or some such rubbish.

This is what you always have an answer for.

We'll maybe talk again when the chip is gone from your shoulders.

I have no chips. None whatsoever. I dont really mind if you want to 'talk' or not.

Agree with Galaxy.

You keep coming on these threads to talk down to us and tell us we are paranoid, but add zero to the discussion. I asked about Scottish politics - something you definitely know about, but you ‘decline’ to answer. You claim to be open-minded on trans issues but never venture an opinion on the subject itself - just about the posters. You are ‘cross’ or feel ‘patronised’, tell us we are subjective and have chips on our shoulders, and you do the tedious thing of listing comments reframed as insults. I am not getting into pointless discussions about what people have said in response to posts about how we have responded. If you want to say what you think about the topic or any of its tangents, crack on and join in, but sniping from the sidelines pretending to be unbiased is not discussion.

Well said Doodledog and Galaxy.

But Volver’s words

There are a lot of people in this debate who will not accept different views or even, no views at all, and think the world is against them.

so exactly describe Glorianny’s posts, with a smidgeon of VS, I could commend her for them.

Mollygo I fully accept your views, but I certainly do not agree with them. If you fail to see the difference between accepting and agreeing with something it really isn't my fault.
If you want to imagine that transwomen are standing (or sitting) in every women's toilet waiting to attack that's up to you. If you want to keep posting details about isolated incidents and then claiming they have a link to all transwomen that is purely discriminatory and I will challenge it. Just as I would challenge anyone who said men shouldn't be involved with children because some men are paedophiles, or someone posted that all black young men should be stop and searched at will because some are involved in supplying drugs. They are all discriminatory.
If you want all female facilities they are protected by law, if the presence of transwomen would stop birth women using them. The point being that most women do not object to the presence of transwomen. I don't see why the objections of a few should outweigh the opinions of many. But even so if you want an exclusive female toilet as distinct from a women's one I would support that. Quite how that would be regulated I don't know as most toilets now have symbols and transwomen believe they are women and would use the one with the appropriate symbol. But by all means have one if you want one. I don't think it is up to me or any other person happy with things as they are to tell you how that would be regulated. Sort it out for yourself.
I will continue to believe that casting doubts on anyone's gender because of their appearance and trying to regulate or eject anyone from a facility because of their appearance can, and is, doing far more harm to most women than any transwoman has ever done, and that accepting diverse and different people in society is a basic principle of human rights.

Single sex spaces arent discriminatory they are enshrined in law. It is very easy to ensure men are not in womens prisons sport etc.

We are sorting it out for ourselves thanks though Glorianny. Every legal action is a slow move forward. Of course it's a bit of a pain in the arse but what's new.

Galaxy

Single sex spaces arent discriminatory they are enshrined in law. It is very easy to ensure men are not in womens prisons sport etc.

Prisons are being dealt with (as I think you know) not because of any legal action by anyone but because the position of putting transwomen into women's facilities in order to prevent them committing suicide was untenable and a purely stop gap measure.
Sport still isn't being dealt with and will never be whilst some people choose to say that black women have to medicate in order to compete. But I accept that their problems don't concern many other people. Particularly those who think the problem is transwomen and not sport for all women.

Why would transwomen in female prisons be untenable?, after all they are women arent they.
No as I have said many times, if there was a policy of hitting every sportsperson over the head before an event, raising concerns about that wouldnt mean I didnt care about racism for example within sport. The inclusion of men in womens sport particularly in the states where it is linked to scholarship will have a particular adverse affect on women of colour.

The point being that most women do not object to the presence of transwomen. I don't see why the objections of a few should outweigh the opinions of many.
Do you have a source for this assertion, please? I was not aware that any research has been done to test the opinion of all women and see what 'most women' object to, so would be pleased to read it.

The proportion of women who reported themselves to be comfortable with a transgender woman using women’s public toilet decreased from 72% to 66%.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/new-research-reveals-positive-attitudes-towards-transgender-people

They didn't ask every woman in the world, so I guess it could just all be made up to punish real women.

I don't think it is up to me or any other person happy with things as they are to tell you how that would be regulated. Sort it out for yourself.
Priceless 😂

After so long telling fact-based feminists to come up with solutions to allow transpeople fully access to women's spaces in a way that is somehow acceptable to those who are not comfortable with it, and to suck it up if we can't, you are now turning our argument on us. No. The status quo was that women had places to be safe when vulnerable, and these are systematically being removed. It is not for women to 'sort it out', unless your world view is that men have to be centred in everything. It is for those wishing to colonise our spaces to explain and convince us that there is nothing to worry about - something that they have spectacularly failed to do, and which the likes of Eddie Izzard makes more difficult for them.

You've posted numerous times across these threads that most women do not object to the presence of trans women Gloriany, do you have any evidence to support this.

Where do men self identifying as women fit into this as for me, there's a huge difference between the two and a man self identifying as a woman isn't a trans woman?

Also, you've been asked numerous times to support your claim that 'masculine looking women' have been shouted at and asked to leave toilets for females, and have yet to do so.

volver

^The proportion of women who reported themselves to be comfortable with a transgender woman using women’s public toilet decreased from 72% to 66%.^

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/new-research-reveals-positive-attitudes-towards-transgender-people

They didn't ask every woman in the world, so I guess it could just all be made up to punish real women.

I doubt it is 'made up' (why would it be?), but unless I am mistaken this is the study that was discredited because of the way the questions were asked, and when they were reframed the answers were different?

I may be wrong, and am on my way out now, so can't look it up, but I think that is the one - there was a very similar one, if not.

Where do men self identifying as women fit into this as for me, there's a huge difference between the two and a man self identifying as a woman isn't a trans woman?
That was it! People answered thinking that they were talking about surgically transitioned women, but when they realised that the term 'transwomen' could mean a man who simply 'identifies' as female they had very different views.

Smileless2012

You've posted numerous times across these threads that most women do not object to the presence of trans women Gloriany, do you have any evidence to support this.

Where do men self identifying as women fit into this as for me, there's a huge difference between the two and a man self identifying as a woman isn't a trans woman?

Also, you've been asked numerous times to support your claim that 'masculine looking women' have been shouted at and asked to leave toilets for females, and have yet to do so.

I'm not Glorianny but I posted a link above.

Here's the masculine looking women bit.

metro.co.uk/2022/05/19/woman-barred-from-ms-toilets-by-worker-who-mistook-her-for-a-man-16675654/

This one's quite old: www.teenvogue.com/story/woman-mistaken-transgender-bathroom-attack

There's a recent one from the US which was actually filmed on a mobile but I can't find it.

Galaxy

Why would transwomen in female prisons be untenable?, after all they are women arent they.
No as I have said many times, if there was a policy of hitting every sportsperson over the head before an event, raising concerns about that wouldnt mean I didnt care about racism for example within sport. The inclusion of men in womens sport particularly in the states where it is linked to scholarship will have a particular adverse affect on women of colour.

Transwomen in prisons is untenable because of the degree of victimisation in prisons. If prisons were not places where sexual behaviour and victimisation were routinely linked everyone would be safer, but they aren't. So transwomen are safer in special units. But if you imagine that the victimisation is strictly transwomen victimising those born women you would be wrong, there is some evidence to show that relationships formed between transwomen and other prisoners are seen as unacceptable and more reportable than other relationships which may be just, if not more abusive, I can see that thinking it's all the fault of transwomen fits with the ideology, but not necessarily the reality.

As for the "women of colour" I wonder why you would be more concerned about something which might happen to them and not concerned about what they say is happening now? Are you not listening to them?

Doodledog

volver

The proportion of women who reported themselves to be comfortable with a transgender woman using women’s public toilet decreased from 72% to 66%.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/new-research-reveals-positive-attitudes-towards-transgender-people

They didn't ask every woman in the world, so I guess it could just all be made up to punish real women.

I doubt it is 'made up' (why would it be?), but unless I am mistaken this is the study that was discredited because of the way the questions were asked, and when they were reframed the answers were different?

I may be wrong, and am on my way out now, so can't look it up, but I think that is the one - there was a very similar one, if not.

Oh, silly me.

Of course it couldn't be right if it supports Glorianny's point,

I'll pop off again. Toodle oo.