Narcissism / narcissistic - labelling

I will join you in Pedants' Corner geekesse, although I think it is worse than mere pedantry.

Narcissism is something that must be diagnosed by a medical professional not casually thrown around on forums like these to describe someone who may be nasty and unkind.
The same with Autism, bandied about on here without a shred of evidence by unqualified people.

I was shocked to see that one poster used the word cretin to describe people they disliked the other day.

I haven't seen Hazel since lockdown, I hope she's ok!!

I was in a relationship with someone until the day I freed myself. I was able to free myself because one day, after a particularly unpleasant weekend, I did a search online for the term “verbal abuse”, which led me to “emotional abuse” and that led me to undertaking a LOT of independent research into NPD. I felt like a whole world of understanding had suddenly opened up on front of me, a true lightbulb moment. It gave me the strength to leave. I hasten to add this nearly 15 years ago. I am in a much MUCH better place now.

I didn’t tell anyone about this (or even the relationship) because yes the term is bandied around far too often and can easily be misused. Once you have experience of a true narcissist you will understand, but until then you can’t possibly.

Geekesse I completely agree with you, thank you for posting this.

Missfoodlove I think we have had different experiences but ultimately very similar. It’s horrendous and I understand. ?

Callistemon

I was shocked to see that one poster used the word cretin to describe people they disliked the other day
You’re kidding?
No, I don’t think you are.

I totally disagree that the person complaining about someone they diagnose as a narcissist must also be bad.
On the other hand, it does annoy me that people use the term narcissist for an unpleasant, bullying, nasty person in their life. Narcissism can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist/psychologist.

Missfoodlove you experienced what no child should have to experience and it must have been horrendous. I am sorry you went through that; I can't change it but I hope you've had help to come to terms with it now.

However, it's not up to me to diagnose your mother as I'm not a qualified psychiatrist, so I hope you understand.

MawB

Callistemon

I was shocked to see that one poster used the word cretin to describe people they disliked the other day
You’re kidding?
No, I don’t think you are.

No, I'm not kidding, MawB.

I can't remember which thread it was but I think it was describing the RF.

No Maw I spotted it too. I should have challenged it but I've learnt that challenging those who like to use these terms so flippantly become very defensive when challenged.

It's gone now.

Good!

GrandmaMoira

I totally disagree that the person complaining about someone they diagnose as a narcissist must also be bad.
On the other hand, it does annoy me that people use the term narcissist for an unpleasant, bullying, nasty person in their life. Narcissism can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist/psychologist.

I didn’t say they were bad. I said ‘it tells me at least as much about the person using it as it does about the subject of their complaint.’ Among other things, if someone uses the word ‘narcissist’ in the absence of a proper diagnosis, it shows they may be responding to behaviours by labelling them and preserving the memory of them in a fixed form. It may imply they are focused on the bad effects on themselves. I’m no psychologist, but I’m pretty sure how people process and talk about trauma tells you important things about them.

I agree with the OP on this.Online casual use of words like narc, toxic, autistic etc are not only possibly incorrect, but cheapen the experiences of those who know genuine cases.
Am sure that many of us have bad experiences from various adults from childhood until the present day, but unless somebody has been diagnosed then we can’t fling labels around.
The other side of the coin is that everyone seems to be a victim now ( on social media) and many lap it up.
(dons tin hat and retires behind sturdy wall.)

I had therapy last year for feelings I was experiencing arising from childhood events. My therapist said to me she thought my mother [now dead] was a Narcissist and pointed me in the direction of some books including It’s My Turn byTina Fuller and Unshame by Carolyn Spring. All of my mother’s behaviours indicate Narcissism but of course she was never formally diagnosed. The behaviours described by MissFoodLove indicate Narcissism but without a diagnosis her mother may or may not have been a Narcissist. Terms are bandied about these days with little regard to their real meaning, Bi-Polar will now become over used due to publicity about Kanye West. My 10 yr old GS says his cousin has ‘anger management issues’ when he’s just expressing anger and the term ‘on the Spectrum’ is applied over-frequently to anyone falling outside the speaker’s personal view of ‘normal’. I think it is important to remember that anyone who has suffered at the hands of a Narcissist, diagnosed or undiagnosed, deserves the utmost sympathy because the damage done is long-lasting and devastating. And yes, hearing the term mis-used is extremely annoying.

64andcruising, you said 'I think it is important to remember that anyone who has suffered at the hands of a Narcissist, diagnosed or undiagnosed, deserves the utmost sympathy because the damage done is long-lasting and devastating.' Would it not be just as true to says '...anyone who has suffered at the hands of a cruel person deserves the utmost sympathy because the damage done is long-lasting and devastating.'?

Lucca luckily for me I didn't have much to do with "the spectrum" before I retired for which I am grateful as it seems like a minefield.

However, my thoughts on "oh he's/ she's" ??? are often - not always - but often used as excuses.

An excuse for not wanting to see "what's real, what's not real and how to tell the difference" Granny Weatherwax courtesy of Sir Terry Pratchett.

It would appear that IF things are seen, too often they are seen, then assigned to "Someone" - that's not him/her/the parents- to fix. May be I'm just getting cynical in my old age.

In this world of "Rights" too often the balance of Responsibility is ignored. Either because the knowledge of Rights AND Responsibility isn't learned or there is very little (no) interest in knowing that for balance both those R's need to be used.

We all have bits that need work, firstly by our parents, family, teachers and friends (I believe in the saying it takes a village to raise a child) and then it's up to us to when we are adults to get ourselves fit for our roles in society.

So in answer to your question of "oh he's" on the spectrum. May be they are and in that case he/she needs help to find ways to live in the world in a way that is OK enough for them and OK enough for we "others" who are around them.

I really dislike it when it's an excuse for any rude behaviour.

It is really up to the person in the situation to discern if another persons "rude' behaviour is and within their ability, or not, to manage their behaviour due to any unchangeable conditions?

Or is the "oh he's" ... a way of giving permission for unsociable behaviour, an excuse to make no changes?

I don't really know but I think when we are in those situations often with the same people we can sort it out.

If it's a stranger in passing it's much harder to say if that person is on "the spectrum" or if it's an excuse.

However, I have a friend who works with people on "the spectrum", where she works some staff to put on kevlar protective clothing. I am not exaggerating, body armer and protective sleeves so "the spectrum" is very large.

We used to teach together and now she works in this very specialised area and she loves it. She tells me with the residents she works with there are no excuses, no political games, they are who they are and they are how they are and you can either deal with it or you don't work there.

If your gut is telling you the "oh he's" an excuse you are probably right but ... proceed with caution :-)

Absolutely yes.

Labelling irritates me too. Yes, describe the behaviour, but then try to find alternative ways of reacting/dealing wth it.
Just writing the person off as a narc, autistic etc doesn't help anyone.
Like allsortsofbags I worked in that field and retired before many of these labels existed.
Evidently there's a publication from the American Psychiatric Assoc. which reviews classifications every now and then and usually creates a few new labels. I think the last time was in the 1990s.

Missfoodlove .i agree with you, unless people have met a true narcissist,,and i am very sorry to read what a terrible life you had
Also there is more than one type of narcissist, and they can sometimes seem the most delightful people to others
People should look at the Quora website ,and learn all about narcissists,it's more than just being unpleasant ,and bullies etc

Also i meant to say, not many narcissists are medically diagnosed because they think they are ok, and can't see any reason for diagnosis,so wont be

Fennel my last DSM was 4 and I do believe there are up-dates that thankfully I don't have to study :-)

I once have a fortuitous experience with a throw away 'Label". I said in passing to DH boss that the company owner was a 'Sociopath'. He stopped the conversation and said "back up, what is that?"

So outside a bar in France, down a few pops, I explained the basics characteristics of a sociopath to him. What do I do ? How do I manage this ? he asked.

Remember I've had a few pops, "Leave" I said.

Longer conversation and he left and went to fly for Singapore Airlines two moths later.

The following year he was buying me Singapore Slings in the Long Bar at Raffles as I was in transit to NZ to see DD1, not too bad an outcome :-)

We, him, me and DH are all retired now so it turned out OK but probably helped by the years of study that went before the throw away 'Label"

Shelmiss

I was in a relationship with someone until the day I freed myself. I was able to free myself because one day, after a particularly unpleasant weekend, I did a search online for the term “verbal abuse”, which led me to “emotional abuse” and that led me to undertaking a LOT of independent research into NPD. I felt like a whole world of understanding had suddenly opened up on front of me, a true lightbulb moment. It gave me the strength to leave. I hasten to add this nearly 15 years ago. I am in a much MUCH better place now.

I didn’t tell anyone about this (or even the relationship) because yes the term is bandied around far too often and can easily be misused. Once you have experience of a true narcissist you will understand, but until then you can’t possibly.

Geekesse I completely agree with you, thank you for posting this.

Missfoodlove I think we have had different experiences but ultimately very similar. It’s horrendous and I understand. ?

Shelmiss I hear you.

Great story allsortsifbags

My adoptive Mother was a controlling nasty liar.
DS1 unfortunately came under her influence for a few years. He has controlled Mental Health problems which she used to persuade Health Workers he had learning difficulties and needed 24 hour health care. All behind my back, she told so many lies about me I had to involve a lawyer and send 'cease and desist' letters to a lot of people to stop the malicious gossip.
I have banged my head off a wall, while he enjoys being waited on hand and foot. Poor G***** he doesn't understand !!!!!
He has lots of Educational qualifications and went to a good College.
Sorry, everytime I say to people that he has Mental health problems they ask 'is he on the spectrum'
Yes,,,, the lazy spoilt toerag spectrum.

Sorry for the vent. but I just got a mail asking me to join a Webinaar their spelling, with other parents of 'children' with learning difficulties, he is 49. aaarrrggghhhh
On BT,,,,,

I so agree, Geekesse. I had never heard the term used as a diagnosis before I read it on GN. Rather like sociopath, applied far too casually, and bi-polar, and to a lesser degree autistic and dyslexic.
Some symptoms are identifiable, but the terms shouldn't be used unless confirmed by a clinical diagnosis.

Over use of words is a particular beef of mine. Now that the internet is here it's given everyone a soapbox to stand on and spout off. Better than that, it's given them anonymity.

How they seize on a word that was never previously in their day to day lexicon. In the days before the internet and spellcheckers, the only way to amass and use such words as narcissistic, was to read a lot. Not something soapbox spouters are well noted for.

Some credit President Lincoln, others say it was Mark Twain, for quoting the saying:
"It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."
Not that those who like to intimidate would ever heed such wise words.