Things atheists have said

None taken, sunseeker . Just clarifying.

Andrew Brown, an atheist, writes in the Guardian:

'new atheism seems to me to reproduce all the habits that made religion obnoxious'

and goes on to speak of some atheists who 'exhibit a kind of intellectual snobbery -believing that they are clever and brave and strong enough to understand that there is no God, but that this is a discovery is too shattering for the common people who should be left in the comfort of their ignorance'

Mmm! I think there is something in what Andrew Brown says; some atheists (Dawkins for instance) do seem to adopt an attitude of condescending intellectual superiority towards those with a faith.

this is a discovery that is too shattering (edit)

Bags - I am a member of the National Secular Society, which really just wants a (cliché alert) 'level playing field' for all.

Non-believers are just now trying to dig us out from under the religious detritus of a millenium - 1,500 years of christian propaganda and about a thousand I suppose of the islamic version. And it has nothing to back up its statements apart from circular reasoning. Yet it still tries to impose its rule on people's lives.

Billy Graham robbed me of two and half of my teen years!

I got better...

"some atheists (Dawkins for instance) do seem to adopt an attitude of condescending intellectual superiority towards those with a faith."

Well, in my case anyway, Richard IS intellectually superior - not that I have a faith! I admire his books (one out of the total being atheist, the rest being facinating accounts of aspects of evolutionary biology) and his restraint - he really does not relish the confrontational.

He's funny too - I remember a video in which he read out some of the hate mail he gets from Christians - hilarious - but then again frightening.

Glad to hear you recovered, feetle. I know someone else who suffered that fate (also recovered). Caught at a vulnerable time they were by the nets and snares. In an odd sort of way, I think it did the person good though. Anyone who thinks I'm a rabid missionising atheist aint heard nothing till they hear this guy !

Petallus - I am not clever enough to be able to persuade myself of the possibility of anything so supremely unlikely as the existence of a deity - I can't make myself believe in the unbelievable. As to choosing which of the - what? - 2,000 or so deities that humanity has believed in... that is a matter of geography largely dependent on one's place of birth.

Secularism guarantees equal rights to worship or not worship, to believe or not believe.

I think it might be taken as a bit patronising to speak of 'recovering' from faith! That means those of us who still believe are - what? But it does explain something; the convert is always the most gung-ho.

And a lot of celebs thoughts on atheism/faith carry exactly how much weight?

No weight at all, lily. I just find them interesting.

Recovering from an onslaught of Billy Graham is what I meant. I think you probably know that.

Your posts are quite vicious, I find. Very christian

When I was 10, my mother was unhappy with her marriage and her life and started on a quest to find meaning. She was a bit nervous of attending various meetings on her own, so as her eldest daughter, I was hauled along to give her confidence in her investigation of a religion she could believe in.

We tried everything within a 30 mile radius of Tunbridge Wells, I reckon. I found it very interesting, sometimes a bit scary, often hilarious, and as I got older, downright infuriating. I decided of my own accord that all of them were not for me, although I liked some of the moral guidances behind them, but was horrified when my mother plumped for a spiritualist organisation and then dragged all of us along to everything. If I had had to choose one, maybe it would have been buddhism.

It did nothing for her marriage, my father tried to look as if he wasn't laughing but he was very worried. He was right to be, she ran off with a medium!

So I am left standing alone in a family of five women and one step-father who all believe in life after death, I find it so hard not to be rude because on occasion they are rude to me, usually when they are trying to convert me. I am called stupid and unenlightened and unwilling to open my mind.

No-one likes to think that anyone is trying to convert them, unless they are lacking something in their life, which is probably why so many people find religion at a late stage in their lives, often after the loss of a loved person.

I respect every person's right to believe in anything they like, but I hate people trying to convert me. I believe that all missionaries are a plague on the earth, and that the only way forward is through education for all so that peoples all over the world can be fully informed and enabled to think for themselves. After all - although my father voted conservative all his life, and tried to make us all do so too, we were educated enough to be able to think for ourselves. And to keep quiet about who we actually voted for.

Vicious? Please elaborate.

I was never a 'convert' to atheism. I never had any faith.

lily, you have virtually accused me of lying about my motivation in talking of atheism.

You have used words such as patronising when I think you really know that was not my intention.

You appear to be doing your damnedest to make me stop mentioning atheism.

You give every appearance of hating me personally even though you don't know me. I have tried to be calm and reasonable even if you don't think so but it feels from where I am that you are spitting in my face.

I tried to have faith, but as a very young child I was already asking awkward questions at the sunday school my father insisted we attend to give him some peace and quiet. Somewhere along the line I simply decided that adults were a very odd bunch. I have met a fair few vicars who don't believe in God, too. They just want to do good in the community and try to help people to lead good lives. I was shocked by that at first, but now I understand.

Should mention that I married into quite a religious family...

Whatever Bags' motives are for starting the thread, I found it interesting.

It was feetlebaum who used the expression 'got better' (from Billy Graham), not you, Bags. Of course I don't hate you. I don't know you and if I did, I don't think I would 'hate' you. I'm not trying to stop you from talking about anything you like. I tried to point out that some kinds of discussion about religion can be very painful for believers. I think the emotional temperature of this particular exchange has gone way out of control so I'm bowing out.

I have just this minute read through this thread. In my opinion, Bags is being bullied and I object most strongly.

I suspect Bags is quite capable of looking after herself.
However, I would strongly defend her right to express herself as she wishes

My thoughts too, Galen, although I would say that just because someone can rise to the challenges of a good debate, it can be frustrating and hurtful when their abilities are used against them to dismantle the discussion. It's good to see fair play

I don't think Bags is being bullied I just think that others are being as outspoken as she is. Surely that is what is to be expected when one starts what is bound to be a contentious thread?

Bags I think you must have expected this, you knew what you were doing when you started so perhaps taking offence is a bit much?

I do so hate it when this happens on GN, someone posts and then someone has a different opinion and then someone, who knew what they were doing, gets upset. Same old , same old......................

Maybe Petallus has a point? Why can't we all be left to believe what we want to and not try to push our indiviual beliefs? I think I've been on Gn for about a year now and none of you know which side of this argument I am on!

I think when you choose to open a subject as emotive as religion (or the lack of it) you do open yourself up to some strong comments. I don't think Bags is actually being bullied, it appears to me to be a discussion between two people.

In my case I am open about the fact that I believe in God but I try not to take personally any comments raised by the non-believers amongst us. I think God is perfectly happy for there to be discussion as to His existence. As I indicated in my previous post, I would not wish anyone to be denied expressing their views (however wrong I think them to be).

I think Bags and Lily disagree, strongly. Both are able to fight their own corner.
I was interested in Petallus's post and thought the comments by Andrew Brown spot on, and Janerowena's comments about show that some religious people are equally judgemental and obnoxious.

Think the programme on Friday, The Time Travellers Guide to Elizabethan England wil be interesting, showing what life was like when religion was at the forefront of everything we did, though [even ate].