FGM prosecutions

There's already a thread on this, Soutra!

Oops sorry I looked through "In the News" and missed it. What's it called?

Can't see any sign of it in Active (last 50 threads commented on. ) So little interest then?

www.gransnet.com/forums/in_the_news/1205835-About-time

It had disappeared off the page for some reason...

Thanks Ana found it! (How was a person to know that "About time" wasn't well, about........ time? )

I know we've had other threads on FGM, but this development made me wonder how gransnetters view the French approach. The school nurse includes a relevant examination of girls in primary school. I think it's annual and this approach seems to have been effective in limiting this practice.

When this issue was considered by our safeguarding team 20 years ago, the conclusion was that the approach should be to avoid prosecution, but to work within the communities to discourage the practice. That hasn't worked has it. It's barbaric and carries life long physical and emotional problems for women and girls. It is oppressive, and I believe it to be abusive. I'm honestly not sure where I stand on the notion of including a physical exam in what used to be the annual growth, dental, hair and general health check. I do believe it could be done in a non threatening way by the school nurse, but I recognise many parents would be upset about including all children, rather than simply those from communities 'at risk' from FGM.

I agree, Iam. It's the only way to stop it. The trouble is the 'rights' of parents to refuse medical exams override the well being if the children. HT friends of mine tell me that the parents of obese and very overweight children are often the ones who refuse to have their children weighed in school. Sometimes the good of the community has to take precedence over the wishes of individuals.

I would hate the idea of a physical yearly examination for little girls in primary school. My whole being screams out against it!!!

I feel the same, jingl. It's one thing being weighed, height measured etc. at school, but to ask little girls to take their knickers off so some stranger can check that all is as it should be horrifies me!

Very strange. The European Court of Human Rights comes to mind.

Or physical violence.

Some stranger? A medical professional, doctor or nurse properly doing a vital task is not 'some stranger'.

Or do you think it's better for little girls to have their labia cut off and the opening to their vagina sewn up?

That's rather a silly question, MiceElf. And of course the doctor or nurse would be a stranger to the child.

No Ana. It's not a silly question. The only way FGM can be detected is by physical examination. There is a culture of fear and silence over the whole matter.

It happens in France and there have been over 100 prosecutions there. Here there are none and only one pending.

I have seen the terrible effects of FGM and any measures to eradicate it are welcome.

Incidentally I remember every child in my class and probably the whole primary school being examined by the school nurse as there had been an outbreak of worms. It was routine and the nurse was gentle and sensitive.

And, any doctor or nurse will be a stranger to a child the first time they attend a surgery.

I understand education professionals are primed to look out for warning signs (other than prolonged absence abroad) connected with loo visits, games participation, unexplained symptoms but this is just the tip of the iceberg. If communities knew that health checks were going to happen it could reinforce the fact that this is illegal in this country and taking a child abroad to do it will not be a way round. How to check children at risk wthout extending checks to all girls is another problem, but if educating the relevant communities is not going to prevent this barbaric practice, what would you suggest?
I imagine that where there are concerns about child sexual abuse, you would approve of pyhsical examination and FGM IS abuse.

If it was routine, as it is in France, I don't think it would be particularly upsetting. Or anyway, not more upsetting than any medical examination or procedure. I think it depends to a large extent on the attitude and behaviour of the adults or even the other children around. You can see children starting to work each other into a state over some very minor event. Applies to academic exams as well as medical!

I get sick and tired of cultural sensitivities being used as an excuse for what is child abuse, and if these doctors are found to have carried out the surgery they should be struck off, no question. If a culture or religion recommended cutting off a boys testicles or castrating him so that he could no longer feel sexual pleasure do we really think it would be going on?

There was a program on Radio 4 a few days ago in which two women (one Asian, one the presenter) discussed aspects of Asian culture including FGM.

They both agreed that to think problems could be solved by the imposition of Western values on other cultures was preposterous.

I am inclined to agree.

It's also patronising.

As a matter of fact, even when sexual abuse is suspected a medical is not carried out unless there has been a disclosure by the child. It is seen as oppressive to do it the other way round (except for pre-speech children, obviously). And children reach a certain age where they have a right to refuse such an examination whatever the concerns might be. If you think about it, anything else would be abusive in itself. I agree FGM is horrific, and education is clearly not working, but it would not be as simple as one might think to impose routine checks in school. I have no idea how they manage in France. I would certainly refuse this for my own daughter or granddaughter.

I think that this disgusting practice should have been stamped out long ago, and those conducting it dealt with severely by the law. No mercy!

GillT57* I think the problem with examining all girls re FGM is one that is more about the feelings and rights of the children concerned rather than "cultural sensitivities". Examining children who have been sexually abused is known to be very traumatic. It is possible that those girls who have been subjected to FGM would feel very much the same.

Indonesia have been forcing medical examinations to see if Muslim girls and women are virgins with a view to whether or not they should receive secondary education.
act.watchdog.net/petitions/3799?l=-mlgHiZA26g

That is clearly wrong and intrusive but France are doing this re FGM and the UK are likely to look at this as a possibility.

This particular issue of enforcing examinations for FGM starts to bite into human rights about our own choices to make decisions about any medical treatment or examinations.

I am definitely not saying that it should not be undertaken, but it needs thinking about very carefully indeed before making any legislation.

Someone needs to make a decent study about how this is working out in France.
It is not an issue on which to make knee jerk legislation.

nightowl Snap. You sneaked that point in while I was still making a brew and composing mine.

Just a couple of points FGM is not an Asian problem. It is primarily practised in Egypt, Somalia and small areas of northern Kenya. It's not 'Western Values' that are being imposed. It's a matter if preventing an abuse which is regarded with horror in most nations, African, Asian and European.

I agree that a study needs to be made of the French system, but my French cousins tell me that medical exams are routine, thorough and not seen as intrusive at all. We clearly need more information, but as with so many issues it's a question of balancing rights.

It's not so very long ago that domestic abuse was seen as the 'right' of a man to chastise his wife and not a matter for state interference. Times change.

Thank you MiceElf. I was slapdash when I said 'Asian'. I couldn't remember the finer details of the radio program.

I was reporting what was said on the program. They used the term 'Western values'.

Trying to impose alternative values to those widely held in any given society is surely going to be fraught with difficulty.

And why stop at FGM? We might also take issue with the marriage to older men of girls aged 12, which we would regard as paedophilia.

Incidentally, the spokeswoman mentioned that whereas a few years ago FGM was at 90 odd percent in certain countries, it is now down to 70 percent. She acknowledged this was still too high but expected in ten years or so the incidence would be down to 50 percent.

How would you begin to explain to a ten year old why she is having to expose her very private regions to anyone when she knows she has no medical problems?

This must be just about the silliest thing to be posted on Gransnet yet.