Do we still set higher standards for women?

True Galaxy ,

Galaxy, I one hundred percent agree with the substance of your post @20:49 today. I have long believed that maturity leave does impact on the psychological aspect of it being subconsciously felt that children are the primarily the responsibility of women for their early upbringing which is I feel totally wrong.

However, how such inbuilt biases are undertaken to be solved by our society I am at a loss to perceive.

I think it's at such an early stage but it will be interesting to see how shared parental leave impacts on this but I dont think the take up of this is high.

Grandad 1943...
I actually wasn't moaning. I was just saying what I believe to be true. The fact that you don't agree with me doesn't make my comment a moan.

Galaxy
We know why it affects women more, women are usually the natural carer in any relationship, someone has to pick the kids up from school or take a day off when they are ill. Men could do it more but it is not expected that they do, the same applies when caring for an elderly parent.
It is also a fact that when children have left home a high proportion of women work part time, which leaves them time to take care of house, home and the many other tasks that need doing.

It may have been that way once (part time work, etc, etc) but I would argue it isn't anymore.

I outearned by ex husband. He EXPECTED me to be the one to take time off when child was sick etc. I corrected him. We took it in turns. Two parents. Two responsible adults.

Assuming it is 'natural' that women do those things just because they are the ones that are pregnant are what continue the attitudes that women have natural aptitude. We don't. It's socialisation.

I agree with the piece you read, Galaxy. Society needs to shift their attitudes. Women are just as capable.

On a personal level (obviously, I can't speak for all men or women), I have been MUCH more capable than any of my partners. TBH, they have been a bit wimpy when it came to rising to a challenge/change. Whereas I love it and embrace it, still at my great age now.

Women are ascapable as men if they want to, in a great many cases they choose to do less. For example in my GP practice there’re are 10 partners the 3 men all work full time, only 1 woman does that, the others work one shift to fit in with other commitments. That follows through many professions, a lot of women do 3 days many do school hours to fit in.

There are of course older women who want to, or need to, do full time work, many don’t, whereas most men choose to have full time work if they can. It’s about work life balance, although I do know a few cases where the man is the part timer the vast majority are women. A good proportion of those work mainly for the social aspect, rather than paying the rent.

The question to ask david is why this affects women more than men, it is not nature it is the way society is structured. Women dont choose to do less in fact they do more, it's just the work they do in undervalued and not seen as work.

As I have stated earlier in this thread, the Equality Act 2010 opened all doors for women to be in parity with men on all levels within our society.

However, as Galaxy so well outlined, attitudes within both genders has meant that those open doors have not been walked through by very many women due to long-standing and continuing social stances contained within both genders.

It changes nothing for any forum member to enter a thread such as this and complain that men continue to dominate in this world. What is required is debate on how the above social attitudes can be changed, and in that, both genders are required to be involved in that debate if any change is ever to be brought about.

It isn't just about women changing attitudes though. WHY do those women work part-time? Family needs obviously. Why don't their husbands work part time?

FYO,
The head of my GP practise works part-time as do all the other GPs there. The job is too much otherwise and he has a young son he wants to spend time with. (He has always been a forward thinking young man, from when he first joined the surgery, one of the reasons he is my GP of choice). He also has great 'soft' skills, probably the reason he has risen through the ranks so quickly.

It changes nothing for any forum member to enter a thread such as this and complain that men continue to dominate in this world. What is required is debate on how the above social attitudes can be changed, and in that, both genders are required to be involved in that debate if any change is ever to be brought about.. OBVIOUSLY

What changes things is the way people live their lives and challenge prevailing attitudes. So women working, and sharing the responsibility for supporting the family. Men sharing responsibility for their children. CHALLENGING in public and on a regular basis prevailing attitudes.

As a feminist, I have done all of those things all of my life. I remember challenging sexim in the classroom at the age of 11. A boy, achieving less than me, that assumed HE was superior and would get a higher grade.

Be a Lady illustrates how women can't ever get it right.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZPabO7fY-U&feature=youtu.be&has_verified=1&fbclid=IwAR0l6_Zi0BN0Kj9J1GpXnRjfXK9l56ov3r-YGKSxDOKc2MwcJqAkAB0Y5so

Warning - video quite explicit in places

Grandad and Anniebach

Jennie Formby went to Bath High School for Girls then St Helen and St Katharine Boarding School. She obtained 10 'O' levels and 3 'A' levels which seems to me to be good results, although I don't know the grades.
Even if she just scraped them, she still passed.
I know that these days some pupils can obtain about 15 O levels and 10 A levels but for that time her results were pretty good!

But the bias against women is vividly illustrated by the allegations that she was only successful because she slept with a man. That's the double standards. And the ridiculous idea that the same might be said of Denis Thatcher or Philip May is touted. as a response ignoring the fact that both were highly succesful in their own field of money, so much so that they probably regarded their wives' job in politics as providing pin money.
I notice that the very vocal supporters of BJ found on other threads have not come forward to reassure us that they would vote for a woman with a similar history.
My DS with children has adjusted his work/life balance to accommodate his children, but I have noticed that some young mothers really don't want to surrender any of their role unless it suits them.

trisher
You raise two really good points. 1. Do we expect women to be more moral and more virtuous than men? With the example of having many children by different fathers, I think society in general certainly does hold it against a woman who has many such children. But the difference between her situation and that of the man is that she is left holding the baby. The man walks off and is free, albeit the mother may pursue him for child maintenance. It isn't quite the same situation and I think behind the judgement of morality lies the old view that the woman is the one who should be responsible for the needs of the baby. This of course is very unfair. However, the facts prove that the mother in these cases is almost always the parent who takes on the day to day nurturing of the child. There is something deep in the psyche of many men, especially when in a group, that admires the man who has his fun and gets away to lead an unburdened life. Please, gentlemen here, do not jump up to protect yourself, your very presence in this discussion has already revealed that you hold higher morals than that, imho.

Point number 2, is this out of date? well it's certainly unfair! Yes of course it is out of date. That is if it ever was completely in date. Don Giovanni was a counter-hero not an admired and wonderful hero. The Duke of Mantua ("La donna è mobile") in Rigoletto, and of course, Don Juan himself are not modern but clearly portray the evils of licentious men.

Frankly, hearing details of this egregious Prime Minister's personal life simply sickens me. It only goes to underline his despicable character and add to the overwhelming evidence that he is entirely unsuitable for his post. It is time for a vote of no confidence, on his delay to deal with COVID-19 alone.

Jennie Formby grew up with an older brother and sister in Malta, Bath and Salisbury. She went to Bath High School for Girls then St Helen and St Katharine boarding school in Abingdon, paid for by the Royal Navy from the age of 14. Formby left school with 10 O levels and 3 A levels, but chose not to go to university

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennie_Formby

No qualifications Grandad?

Sorry Callistemon You beat me to it.

that's OK, varian it was worth repeating.

In fact, I don't really think she could have left school with more qualifications.

Looks like Grandad may have made a mistake, he was probably at the end of his tether with sheer frustration at the 'What a boutary' that looms large here. How we can look to Phillip May for inspiration beats me.

Yes, Grandad was mistaken but I thought it was a good idea to post that she did, in fact, leave school with good examination results.
It was not fair to Ms Formby to let that remain without correction.
She could have taken up a place at university with those results but chose not to.

I can see nothing wrong with stating the facts.

Grandad1943

how the above social attitudes can be changed, and in that, both genders are required to be involved in that debate

Such wise words! This lies at the heart of our discussion I believe.

The education of particular people in politics is by the by, although I understand how people get involved on a point.

The real and important discussion is about the attitudes to women and men which underlie every part of society, and which depend upon change and discussion from both women and men as Grandad1943 said.

I remain stuck with my problem concerning the example given of producing babies from many partners. The woman becomes pregnant and is literally left holding the babies. Nature cannot be changed! Her feelings, her life, each baby's future depend upon how she copes with that situation. The father remains footloose and fancy free. Perhaps if more were done to trace fathers of illegitimate children and take from them the money they should give towards child-maintenance, that might send a message about their responsibility in the circumstance. Money, though, is but one small aspect of the child's life and the mother's situation.

Part of the problem is that many women, having demanded and got equality of education and opportunity, do well in their chosen career, have their babies, take full advantage of maternity leave and part-time working, then choose, quite deliberately, not to return to full-time work because they lack the ambition to further their careers.
It is not men deserting them and leaving them holding the baby; those women frequently have to work full-time and achieve their 'full potential'; it is the women with men who are willing to support them who deliberately choose not to further their careers.

Somebody cited part-time female doctors; my experience exactly, now taking early retirement; and also part-time teachers. None of the young teachers I worked with over the past twenty years have returned to full time work; such a waste of trained and talented women.

Thanks for the Jennie Formby exams results Callistemon
they were very good results for 40 years ago.

Trisher, yes you're quite right. I've noticed the double standards right here on Gransnet. Women are all to willing to criticise and attack others who don't meet their 'standards' yet are generally far more lenient in their attitudes towards men.