Do we still set higher standards for women?

Gagajo you are one of the 10% you made your choices any other woman could do the same, most don’t. They choose to have children or caring responsibilities, they chose to have a relationship as well. Maybe some regret the choices they made but it’s their responsibility,.

I had children. And a husband who thought his job was more important than mine. Who didn't do an equal share of childcare or housework.

20 years ago, you would have assumed I was one of the 90% because a man didn't pull his weight and I was trapped because of it.

Your attitude is sexist.

Women don't decide to start families. Men and women decide together.

Don't place the blame of patriarchal society solely at the feet of women. Men keep women controlled by not pulling their weight domestically.

Where women see injustice against them it is for women to organise and fight that injustice. However, throughout the second half of the last century and the first nineteen years of this century we have seen scant evidence of such organisation and fight.

What we all witness is singular unorganised protest on social media forums such as this which will never change anything.

Wow, Grandad, that’s a fine bit of victim-blaming! It’s women’s own fault that the patriarchy keeps them screwed down? That’s utter nonsense about post-war women. Many were not happy to have to leave their jobs at all. They had enjoyed that freedom but then they were told to budge up to allow the men back in. Women had no rights to keep their job, they could be sacked just like that.

Look at the many women who had to leave their jobs either because they had the temerity to marry or have a child. No man that I’m aware of has ever had to do that. . Women also had few rights in other areas. They were shunned if they had a child out of wedlock. They were expected to endure domestic abuse, because they must have made their man do it. If they walked out of their marriage because of said abuse, they were deemed to have abandoned any children and custody was given to the father, however unfit. Women have fought long and hard to overcome such hurdles and any decent man today should be right behind the women who want what men have.

It's about giving up power and that's never easy. There is an example of it on here. Grandad you are stating that there has been little evidence of the fight for womens rights recently and that discussion on social media forums will not help. You are wrong and know very little about current campaigns for womens rights. As I have already stated numerous changes in womens rights started on mumsnet, they include let toys be toys (campaign against sexist stereotypes) campaign for maintaining single sex places and campaign for legislation around murder by rough sex (We dont consent to this started on mumsnet).
In the period you mentioned women established domestic violence shelters, (they established them for women then went on to set up one for men) campaigned and won for rape to be made illegal in marriage, campaigned for abortion laws, campaigned against FGM, fought to change the law around street harassment. It's unfair and inaccurate to state there was no evidence of a fight for womans rights, you just weren't interested in it and that's fine, I dont particularly expect you to be. But please dont say those women are doing nothing.

When a couple decide to have a family the realistic option is that one of them is going to have to take a step back from their career. Unless they are both very high earners it is not going to work with both trying to work full time, it is up to the couple to decide who works less. If neither are willing to take a step back they should not have a family, maybe men should take on more childcare, on the other hand women are by far the best carers and there are plenty of part time of school hours work for women, many of those options don’t exist for men

Very few can “have it all”, changes have to be made if you want children, whatever you decide, be realistic, children take time to care for, make your decision happily not grudgingly. One of my daughters is the higher earner, her husband is a carpenter/builder with his workshop at home, it’s easy for him pick the kids up or look after them if they are off school, that works well.

I have zero sympathy for couples who think they can both have demanding full time jobs and care for children properly, something has to give.

Davidh I am sorry but you appear to be talking about a time long gone. Of course part time jobs and school jobs are available to men why on earth wouldn't they be.

Of course there are part time jobs in the economy but they are not career jobs, employers expect men to put in a full days work, if you are are a car mechanic, truck driver or an architect you are expected to work a full day. It’s up to the couple to decide who does less.

I actually saw Grandad's post late last night and considered responding then but I decided to "sleep on it" and see if it looked any better in the morning. I've looked. And it doesn't. It's one of the most ill informed, misogynistic posts I've ever seen him be the author of. How can he not know that, at the end of WW2, when men returned to the UK to take up their positions in the factories and shops that they'd left behind; women were forced out of those roles that they had so ably occupied throughout the war. Those women were told to get back to their homes and kitchens, look after their menfolk and children and leave the jobs for the men. And they did. It caused depression and mental ill health for millions of women who, for the first time ever, had had a taste of independence and financial freedom.

I'm staggered that someone with Grandads usual eloquence is so ignorant of WW2 history.

Employers expect whoever is employed in the role to do a full days work, they dont have different expectations of men and women.

Well legally they dont, whather culturally they do is another matter.

women are by far the best carers
No. This is what we are TRAINED to do. Society is full of people telling us this. You are just regurgitating dominant ideology. I'm not a natural mother. I hated being at home with children. I'm a natural career woman.

make your decision happily not grudgingly
Hard to do when men and society tell us 'women are by far the best carers' when we want more.

employers expect men to put in a full days work
Then MEN should take different jobs. MY job expects me to put in a full day. In the UK, my day was often 7am to 9pm. Even if you are not the main career, that is not compatible with any kind of work-life balance. It certainly isn't exclusive to men.

You say women need to do more to earn real equality. MEN need to stop using excuses for not promoting the equality of the sexes. They need to stop assuming a caring role is a biological one. It isn't. They need to stop buying into patriarchy. It isn't some kind of natural system. It was created for the benefit of men and patrilineage. They take an equal part in the procreation process. They now need to take an equal part in the raising of the children they create.

David, you're not entering into debate. You are dictating the OLD system. You are making excuses.

*main carer

On Friday I am singing in a pop up choir to celebrate International Women's Day. One of the things we will be highlighting and demonstrating about is the way all safety testing is done on male body models. As Grandad1943 has some health and safety experience perhaps he could help explain why this is so. (The only reason I can think of is that men design the tests). As far as women giving up work easily after WW2 I can tell you categorically that was not true for most working class women. They went back to the kitchen unwillingly. But the government cut all the day nursery funding and shut down the provision so there was no way they could work with small children. They still went back into work when their children started school. Who do you imagine staffed the laundries, the shops, the cafes and cleaned the offices and factories where men worked? Of course they weren't permitted the well paid qualified jobs- no apprenticeships for women- so they took what they could get. It's a middle class myth that married women never worked.

Gagajo
A few men have the temperament to be carers, from what I see maybe 5% of nurses or care assistants are male, yet you insist that they are equal, that is not the reality and never will be.

Women make their career choices, there was a large dispute locally where women were demanding equal pay for work of the same value. The comparison was made that Carers were equal value to Bin Men who earned substantially more. I’m not sure how many women were taken on to work the bins, my guess is that warm indoor work was more appealing despite lower wages.
At the end of the day we all choose the best job that suits our lifestyle and if you decide to have children that affects your lifestyle and any relationship you might have, so don’t expect to carry on as before

Chewbacca well said!
Some women probably were happy to step back to home responsibilities after the war, but even they didn't do it from choice, they were ordered to give up their jobs for the returning men. I knew of several women in my wider family who really resented having to give up the higher paid work they had been doing during the war, but of necessity needed to earn and so were forced to take badly paid menial work.
I doubt you'll get grandad to retract, he rarely corrects or acknowledges his inaccurate information. His absence of acknowledging how totally wrong he was about Jennie Formby on leaving school with virtually no qualifications whatsoever says it all. She actually left school with 10 O levels and 3 A levels.

Its like pulling teeth. Both men and women choose to have children. Yet women are the ones impacted by this, partly due to the attitudes you are expressing.

You're missing my point David. Many women do not feel a 'draw' to being a carer. It is a role that has been assigned to women because it is low status.

If nursing SUDDENLY became regarded as high status, highly skilled and was highly paid, there would be a sudden influx of men.

Yes see the percentage of nurse anesthetist (41%are male).

Chewbacca, regarding your post @08:44 today, you state in its content that my post of the 04/05/20 @21:58 demonstrated my overall ignorance and misogyny by way of its content and the views I expressed. So, let us look once again at what I did state in that post.

In regard to the employment situation at the close of the second world war (1945), I stated, and I Quote:-

[ If forum members think back, throughout the second world war women carried out all the occupations normally worked by men while they were away in armed service. In truth, Britain was almost entirely maintained as a working entity by women.

At the conclusion of that war, all those occupations were handed back to those returning men without any protest whatsoever by the women who had held those jobs throughout the war years.] End Quote.

Chewbacca, In response to the above, you stated in your above referred to post, and I again Quote:-

[ How can you not know that, at the end of WW2, when men returned to the UK to take up their positions in the factories and shops that they'd left behind; women were forced out of those roles that they had so ably occupied throughout the war. Those women were told to get back to their homes and kitchens, look after their menfolk and children and leave the jobs for the men. And they did. It caused depression and mental ill health for millions of women who, for the first time ever, had had a taste of independence and financial freedom.] End Quote.

In regard to the above, I completely agree with you Chewbacca on the repercussions of handing back those occupations undoubtedly had on very many women at that time. However, the above factor was not in any way the substance or reference of my post. As can be witnessed in my copied down section of that post, I purely spoke on the lack of protest made by women in regard to handing over their employment at that time.

Therefore, Chewbacca I very much fail to see how you can deduce I am in ignorance in regard to a subject or factor that I had not even spoken on. Further to that, to deduce there is misogyny in that same post is without doubt completely disgusting, and I invite you to explain further how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion.

Oh goody.

Mansplaining on how women should be doing more.

I believe it is a woman in this thread that requires to do some explaining.

I think the women are in agreement Granddad1943. Patronising, to boot.

Are you now the returning ballot officer for this forum then. GagaJo